Bargain Hunt Tsuba

[Ghoul]

Hi guys,

 

I have made another thread about the Tantō here: £50 Tantō/Kaiken/Kitchen Knife

 

But in the same auction I bought that blade, I also picked up four tsuba and two seppa (for less than £100 I might add):

 

(I have numbered them for ease of discussion)

 

Although I know very little about tsuba, these guys look like they have had a rough time - and I very much want to ensure they are cared for properly.

 

Before I go into my preservation plan, can anyone tell me anything about them please? I'm can't even begin to guess their age or school.

 

I will shortly attach more detailed images.

 

 

[Ghoul]

1. The chromosome tsuba (I really don't know what the shapes are meant to represent, but it is actually much more attractive in person than in the pictures):

 

 

[Ghoul]

2. The wonky tsuba (the main hole seems to be off-centred for some reason?, and its got quite the dent in it which certainly isn't helping):

 

[Ghoul]

3. The leaf tsuba (my personal favourite, and why I bought the lot to begin with):

 

Any guesses what the spikes are meant to represent?

 

[Ghoul]

4. The beans tsuba (it looks like it might have a signature, however, I'm not sure whether it has been painted at some stage, because it seems to be missing some of the finer detail?):

 

[Ghoul]

Any and all thoughts on them would be very much appreciated!

 George

[Spartancrest]

Number four is unfortunately a cast piece.  Sorry

[Ghoul]

Thanks @Spartancrest, that makes an awful lot of sense actually - I wondered why the colour was different from the others, as well as the lack of fine detail.

 

Does that mean you think the other three are genuine antiques then? Even 2. with its strangely off centre hole?

[SteveM]

#3 possibly a Japanese chestnut?

And I agree, this one is probably the best of the lot. 

 

[Spartancrest]

8 hours ago, Ghoul414 said:

Does that mean you think the other three are genuine antiques then? Even 2. with its strangely off centre hole?

Yes the others appear genuine to me, though I have seen dozens of number 3 as cast copies, yours is the real deal. Another 'Akasaka' one here http://www.nihonto.us/AKASAKA KIRI TSUBA.htm  if you notice the price, imagine what yours could be worth with a little cleaning work! Another auction piece with some gold nunome https://www.jauce.com/auction/e1113251200  or  https://page.auction.../auction/e1113251200 

Also a papered piece  https://www.jauce.com/auction/1049690563  or  https://buyee.jp/ite...o/auction/1049690563

Number 2 may have been mounted two or more times, when you analyse the image there is only one section where too much metal has been removed. The tagane-ato [punch mark] has pushed the nakago-ana back to a central position. You could fill that void with some sekigane/ategane but if a seppa was placed over it you wouldn't notice it at all.

 

Number 1 is "Gunbai" or war fans similar to this site https://world.seiyud...m/product/tu-350115/  from memory we have had a thread on this design before and perhaps someone can find it?

 

  Cast junk, part of a "buy in bulk" auction https://www.jauce.com/auction/k1115533175

 

 

I would not despair over the cast 'peapod' tsuba, this one is better but still cast and part of the Auckland War Memorial Museum [NZ] collection - many museums harbor cast guards 

 

Ebay had one - somewhat overpriced! https://www.ebay.com/itm/225703612364

[Ghoul]

Hi @Spartancrest/Dale, you seriously made my day with your last comment - both good news and very informative!

 

I had in my head thought 3. was a real beauty - the edges are just so crisp, the contrast between the circular rim and blocky smooth centre, and the balance of the pieces as a whole is just so good - so I'm really happy to hear it is not only genuine, but a design worth copying. Even if it is worth a bit, having it in hand to appreciate has actually been quite an inspiring experience, just like getting my first katana, and I suspect this will be with me for a very, very long time....  Out of interest, I noticed that none of the examples you've linked have a filled kogai hitsu-ana (if I've not got that right, I'm referring to the cloud shaped hole) -  does it mean something that mine does?

 

Also I'm really pleased to hear 2. has clearly been used over the years rather than just damaged - the image explanation is much appreciated.

 

My only other pressing question really is regarding the ages of all four? My gut says that 1. is the oldest since it is the most reserved of the four, but I'm really not sure of even the centuries 1-3 belong too - also, I know 4. is cast, but I'm still interested in when would it have been made? Early 1900s tourist piece? Thanks!

 

Also @SteveM - I think you're right, it does look like a chestnut 

 

[Spartancrest]

3 hours ago, Ghoul414 said:

I know 4. is cast, but I'm still interested in when would it have been made? Early 1900s tourist piece?

This question will likely get you lynched in certain circles [you and me both!] I suggest you look at https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/38416-tsuba-casting-molds/ If you like having a weekend to do some reading 

3 hours ago, Ghoul414 said:

none of the examples you've linked have a filled kogai hitsu-ana (if I've not got that right, I'm referring to the cloud shaped hole) -  does it mean something that mine does?

The filled hitsu [Ategane or Ume] looks to be Shakudo [gold/copper alloy] so a little 'up-market'. It simply means that the guard was fitted to a saya that didn't have the slot for a Kogai and the hole in the tsuba was filled because it could not be used - [it still eludes me why they went to the trouble in many cases] There is a theory that the plugs were made of precious metals as 'emergency cash' but that would not cover the many made in lead. Also just how much gold would there be in the Shakudo?

[Ghoul]

I may get crucified by some of you for my methods, but over the past week or so I have been gently treating the rust on all four tsuba using WD40 and wooden cocktail sticks.

 

I did do research before trying this, and there seems to be as many different cleaning methods as there are members on this forum... But I've used WD40 on other rusty antiques before, and knew it wouldn't touch the patina. It just slowly dries out the rust, allowing it to be dislodged, and given enough time, even flake away entirely all by itself. Before using it though, I did try it on the cast tsuba, just in case, but it seemed to react as I expected, so I went ahead and applied it to the other three.

 

I think now each tsuba has had about three wet/dry cycles, where after leaving it coated in water displacer applied by cotton bud for a day or two, I would then attempt to remove as much loose rust as possible with the cocktail sticks. Its slow going (and quite therapeutic actually), but they seem to be looking a lot healthier now:

 

 

There is still much work to be done though, especially with the chestnut tsuba in the bottom right - but I'm hoping repeated uses of this method will eventually get rid of all the rust, without having to subject it to more intrusive methods. Unless anyone else has some other suggestions?

 

[Winchester]

I am not an expert commentator, nor knighted, so take my feedback as you will......

 

George, I think from a practical standpoint you are just fine.

[ROKUJURO]

5 hours ago, Ghoul414 said:

I may get crucified by some of you for my methods, but over the past week or so I have been gently treating the rust on all four tsuba using WD40 and wooden cocktail sticks.

......there seems to be as many different cleaning methods as there are members on this forum.......

Hi George,

"we" on the NMB forum do not decide about correct or incorrect ways to restore TSUBA; we don't make rules or regulations. But many of us have seen TSUBA in good and desirable condition and know how they should look to be collectable.

Do you also know in which direction your work has to go? Do you know about later effects your treatment might have? Do you know that WD40 does not dry but evaporates? Do you know that it mainly consists of chemical solvents?

Your treatment may or may not harm your TSUBA, and I also don't know what their artistic or monetary value might be after this, but I just would like to express my concern about any non-traditional restoring method anyone might try after reading your report.

All the best, and enjoy your TSUBA which seem to be quite nice (at least three of them)

[Ghoul]

Hi @ROKUJURO,

 

As mentioned before, I have used WD40 on other antiques before (such as a rusty bayonet), with decent results. 

 

I understand it is controversial because it is a modern chemical compound, but it genuinely seems to have very little negative effect on old patina and old iron from my observations, as you said it mostly evaporates away, and I believe it is a type of oil anyhow (it's certainly how it acts on metal).

 

After all, they *needed* treatment against the rust.

 

An other alternative I had heard about and considered was boiling them in water (which I believe is a type of bluing like on a firearm), but I didn't want to risk that in case it simply converted the red rust to black rather than just removing it like the water displacer/cocktail sticks does...

 

Edit: I should add I'm very much open to knowing if there are negative affects to WD40, or better alternatives, I just aren't aware of them? 

[Ghoul]

In terms of others damaging their tsuba (or even myself if this eventually turns out badly), I would like to clarify I wouldn't use water displacer if it wasn't that these tsuba were so heavily rusted, because I do definitely recognise the inherent risk with any sort of restoration/maintenance, and people should never attempt such things without admitting they may destroy the beautiful pieces of history they are trying to protect.

 

I wouldn't ever go anywhere near them with anything harder than bone, and even then I suspect you could scratch the Shakudo (wood doesn't seem to be able too, which is why I continued with it, even thought it is very slow going).

 

It really is a risk vs reward situation - I knew the rust was so bad it was actively destroying them and needed stopping. I just couldn't in good conscience leave them like that.

[kissakai]

They look so much better, as before I'm sure most would discard them straight away

I can't see any damage to the patina

I have not idea if your methods are correct but they needed much more than a gentle wash

Stopping the rust was paramount and if you keep them long enough you will know

I have seen some great work done with bone picks but the examples took ages for one piece

I expect to get shot down buts thats life

 

 

[Ghoul]

Thanks @kissakai, and funnily enough I am already planning to make some bone picks/awls, to see if they are able to remove some of the more stubborn rust in the more awkward spots.

 

I've actually got the beef bone from the butcher sitting in my fridge already, so I'll let you know how it goes once I make them 🙂

[Spartancrest]

I made a few bone picks - even went so far as to use some "Ito" for a comfortable grip! 

[ROKUJURO]

Dale,

good tools are essential for good work! 

[Spartancrest]

https://www.etsy.com...-hair-pin-of-bone-17  This looks well made - no idea how big it is though.

[Ghoul]

I have been working on the tsuba now for many weeks on and off, and I have to say the upgrade from wooden toothpick to bone has made a massive difference! 

 

The bone easily scratches off rust, leaving the patina for the most part unharmed.

 

However, a few costly lessons have been learned so far - and I'm putting them here in case others try this.

 

1. Bone can scratch Shakudo

2. Bone will eventually scratch/wear through patina

3. Cleaning will reveal existing damage or flaws

 

However, my most painful lesson:

 

4. Flaked rust or metal from the cleaning can get under the tsuba if you are cleaning on a table/hard surface, and as you continue to clean and apply pressure to the tsuba, scratch the Shakudo without you noticing 

 

That last one really hurt when I flipped over the tsuba to find the new marks - and I'm angry at myself for not thinking about it beforehand 

 

Now I do the cleaning on a pad of white paper, which is nice and soft and also makes it easy to notice and clean the dust/flakes.

 

On the bright side, the tsuba's iron has continued to look better and better - and I think perhaps slowly giving up some secrets...

 

Does this look like a signature to anyone else on the left of the ana?

 

 

[kissakai]

Nice lessons to be learnt - looks like it may be a mei but you will need better images

You could try drawing what you can see in hand

 

[Ghoul]

Thanks Grev, I thought about not sharing my findings since it's embarrassing admitting to such mistakes, but I hope it helps prevent someone else from making them.

 

As to the mei, it is very faint even in person - I can only really distinguish two horizontal lines with *something* between them.

 

I hope further cleaning over time will help reveal more, in which case I'll happily share, as I would very much like to know as much as possible about this tsuba after spending so long working on it.

[ROKUJURO]

George,

our experts can sometimes read signatures in really bad condition, but they will need perfect light (from the side) and very well focused images (which your last photo is not).
As we think it is an AKASAKA TSUBA, this might help reading the MEI. 

I get the impression that there is still some rust on this nice TSUBA. In further cleaning, you could also try pointed bamboo splinters and brushing with your wife's toothbrush.  After scraping, I always use low-viscosity TSUBAKI (Camellia) oil and household paper for final cleaning. Usually, the paper turns brown from loose rust!
 

[Spartancrest]

3 hours ago, Ghoul414 said:

I thought about not sharing my findings since it's embarrassing admitting to such mistakes

I think our job is to help people not make the same mistakes we have. You are helping with those tips - 

 

PS I think the shakudo will come back in time.

[Spartancrest]

https://www.jauce.com/auction/b1122424851  another pea pod casting, they turn up pretty regularly.  

[Ghoul]

11 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

Usually, the paper turns brown from loose rust!
 

Thank you for the tips, I very much look forward to giving it that final clean! (I will also get some better photos later)

 

And thanks Dale, another Pea tsuba! There must be a *lot* of them floating around... It is interesting that one looks like it has been mounted though.

 

I very much hope you are right about the Shakudo 

[Spartancrest]

2 hours ago, Ghoul414 said:

It is interesting that one looks like it has been mounted though.

 

 You would be surprised the number of cast guards that have sekigane and have been mounted, there is a lot that have precast cut outs at the base of the nakago-ana in particular so sekigane can be added, the pea tsuba you have has them. Which was another giveaway that it was cast.  Many of course have cast in tagane-ato just to give the illusion they were mounted. 

 

    even one of mine!