Impact damage on Shinogi

[pcfarrar]

I've got a nice shinto katana in gunto mounts and it has what looks to be impact damage on the shinogi. The sword came straight from the vet who brought it back and was in untouched condition.

 

Anyone have any thoughts what might have caused this? Maybe a ricochet or shrapnel damage? It's relatively shallow and there is one large as pictured and a number of smaller ones.

 

Thanks,

 

Peter

[loiner1965]

its not a rifle round pete as a 150gn fmj bullet moving at 2700fps can easy penetrate 12mm of steel so i presume its a pistol round as they are only lead and only travelling around 860 to 1000 fps

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

What about the scabbard ?

 

If it's untouched, the damage likely is earlier enabling the option "Jutte strike" for the big one.

Otherwise a "near-miss" bullet might be an option.

[pcfarrar]

What about the scabbard ?

 

If it's untouched, the damage likely is earlier enabling the option "Jutte strike" for the big one.

Otherwise a "near-miss" bullet might be an option.

 

It's in an aluminium gunto saya with no sign of damage around the blade dent.

[huntershooter]

With no frame of reference as to size, this is a guess:

Appears to be a .45 cal. round at a very shallow angle. I would take a .45 cal. bullet and see if it matches the apparent radius.

[pcfarrar]

All of the dents measure around 0.3". The blade is also not bent at the impact point.

[george trotter]

I've got a nice shinto katana in gunto mounts

Hi Peter,

Your hamon is my most favourite type. Can you tell us the maker? This hamon reminds me of Showa era Osaka work such as Okishiba Yoshisada and Fukuoka's Komiya Shiro Kunimitsu.

Regards,

George.

[Ted Tenold]

Peter, are the other dents in the same general position? I'd find it difficult to believe that bullets or shrapnel would be consistently placed. Also, I've seen two different swords with arms damage; one bullet, the other shrapnel. Neither was so neatly impacted. The metal was displaced in such a way the the glancing points were raised to burrs and there was severe smearing/deformation of the metal in the impact area from friction. The shrapnel damaged one was even more severe with deeper texturing in the impact area. Also if the blade is not bent in the impact regions, perhaps it was straightened, so look for "shinae" (sometimes called "mukade" or "centipedes") in the surfaces in the region of the damage. The look like stacks, or layers of wrinkles in the surface and are caused by the surface material having been stretched across the out radious of the bend, then buckeled when straightened again. They may also be on both sides because for the blade to be straightened the "set" has to be removed by bending the sword in the opposed direction to the more or less the same degree.

 

Not sure any of this gets you closer to know the "why" and "how".

[pcfarrar]

I think its possible it has a couple of shinae on the shinogi on the reverse side. Hard to be certain though as it has a lot of scratching.

 

Your hamon is my most favourite type. Can you tell us the maker? This hamon reminds me of Showa era Osaka work such as Okishiba Yoshisada and Fukuoka's Komiya Shiro Kunimitsu.

 

A more knowledgeable collector than me believed the sword might be Koto Bizen. It's 28" nagasa, kasane is 0.7cm at the hamachi and 0.5cm at the kissaki. Suriage with 3 mekugi-ana. The hamon is a very attractive ko-choji, gunome midare with sunagashi, ashi and very fine ko-nie. The jigane is a nice tight ko-itame. The gunto mount is a good quality early example and it looks like a mon badge has been removed from the kabuto-gane.

[george trotter]

Thanks for the pics Peter...certainly is a nice hamon. Good taste never goes out of style...it is a good example of a hamon which IMHO looks best in sashikomi polish.

About the impact? ...I have to say that from the pics it is a bit of a mystery. From the lack of crater edges where the object "dragged" some displaced metal as it passed off the blade it appears that it was not a high velocity object or the owner carefully tidied up the edge. I suppose we will never know...the apparent lack of obvious shinae from upset metal or straightening a dent etc may even mean a westerner with a round file wanted to see what sort of metal it was?

In the end, the wound does not seem fatal, and while a little irksome, I think it should just be accepted as part of its "record" of history.

Regards,

George.

[edzo]

Hi Peter,

 

I'm new at this but a consideration i would have might potentially be the result of a blister. Just a thought not having the blade to study and i'm new at this. Hope u get a good result from your question.

 

Resectfully,

Rd F

[pcfarrar]

Definitely not the result of a forging flaw. They are quite shallow and you can't see them with the blade flat. I'll see what the polisher says when I send it off sometime next year.

[Stephen]

too me it looks like it was hit with a boken, just my take.

[loiner1965]

too me it looks like it was hit with a boken, just my take.

i do not think a wooden sword ( bokken ) could have cause this damage personally but anything is possible....the main problem peter as is will it be repairable and cost effective to be polished

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

As this is obviously an exercise of imagination, I like to think the bump was made by the attached item (one with round stiff), being the damages on the Ha either made by re-streightening or by the trapping action of the arms of the Jutte.

 

[pcfarrar]

....the main problem peter as is will it be repairable and cost effective to be polished

 

The damage to the shinogi will more than likely have to stay. Doesn't really detract from the sword as its not visible unless you hold the sword at an angle. Other than the damage to the shinogi the sword has no major problems or forging flaws. The hamon is wonderful with loads of sunagashi sweeping through and bright fine nie.

 

I'm guessing its quite possible the damage was inflicted with a Jutte.

[pcfarrar]

Just to update that the impact damage and shinae all polished out. No traces of it left at all :D

[loiner1965]

Just to update that the impact damage and shinae all polished out. No traces of it left at all :D

pics please peter and well done

[pcfarrar]

I sold the sword to a friend, he had it polished and I bought it back today. :lol:

 

I think it may be Koto Bizen. It has a great ko-choji hamon.

[loiner1965]

looks really nice pete

[Mark Green]

The barrel of an M1 Garand may make a very close match?

Great looking sword Pete!

Mark G

[jason_mazzy]

just out of curioisity? y buy it, sell it, then buy it back? Just curiosity to as it seems it would be hard to polish one of my blades then sell it back to the guy i bought it form.

[pcfarrar]

just out of curioisity? y buy it, sell it, then buy it back? Just curiosity to as it seems it would be hard to polish one of my blades then sell it back to the guy i bought it form.

 

To be honest I didn't think it would polish up so well so decided to move it on. When I saw the end result I regretted selling it and decided to get it back. Luckily my friend is also a dealer so getting it back wasn't a problem.

[jason_mazzy]

now that is cool. glad he let you get it back