Identification on Satsuma Vases Requested

[Bob61]

Hello Everyone

 

I am here to ask for help with aging and signature identification on this pair of satsuma vases. Any information would be greatly appreciated. 

 

Each vase measures 14cm H x 4.5cm (Base) W and weigh 218 and 238grams.

 

Thank you all!

 

Cheers, 

 

Bob

 

[ROKUJURO]

  On 11/13/2023 at 9:52 PM, Bob61 said:

.....I am here to ask for help with aging.....

Expand  

Hi Bob,

I know the problem well and I am working on it for almost 80 years now, but there is not much progress, sorry!

[SteveM]

Signature is 東正山造 (Tōshōzan-zō). Made at/by Tōshōzan. 

 

There are several possible readings, so the pronunciation might be slightly different (might be Tōseizan, for example). I just took a quick look on the internet and I can see Western collectors using both names. 

 

 

Ref: these guys say "tentatively" Tōseizan. I have my doubts. 

https://www.bluecher...-information#t_marks

[SteveM]

This site here also says Tōseizan (p.84). It suggests the date would be early20th century (Taishō-Shōwa). 

https://online.flipb...vrwj/index.html#p=84

[Matsunoki]

Definitely post Meiji and made in vast quantities for Foreign export.

[Bob61]

Hi Everyone

 

I truly appreciate all the help and will look into what has been suggested. This is a great start, thank you all.

 

Cheers.

 

Bob

[Matsunoki]

  On 11/14/2023 at 4:46 PM, Bob61 said:

truly appreciate all the help and will look into what has been suggested.

Expand  

Hi Bob, for an example of good quality Satsuma earthenware featuring samurai have a look at this link…..and even this one is nowhere near the best quality. Always good to compare different qualities and values!

 

https://www.bonhams....868-1912-circa-1900/

[ROKUJURO]

Colin,

I was always convinced that SATSUMA ceramic is porcelain and not earthenware? Firing temperature about 1.300°C instead of 850 - 1.000°C? 

[Baba Yaga]

s

Satsuma vases late 19c-20c well done go for $700 pair in most West Coast midlevel antiques stores. Bonhams is off there rocker. 

[Matsunoki]

  On 11/14/2023 at 9:41 PM, ROKUJURO said:

that SATSUMA ceramic is porcelain and not earthenware?

Expand  

Jean, sorry, it is earthenware. Kutani is porcelain as is Arita, Seto, nabeshima etc

 

  On 11/14/2023 at 10:14 PM, Baba Yaga said:

Satsuma vases late 19c-20c well done go for $700 pair in most West Coast midlevel antiques stores. Bonhams is off there rocker. 

Expand  

Baba, at that price they are rubbish. Try researching Yabu Meizan, Seikozan, Sozan(the artist working for a kinkozan) or jus t browse Bonhams “Satsuma”. The good stuff is very highly valued and Bonhams are for once experts in it.

[Matsunoki]

  On 11/14/2023 at 10:14 PM, Baba Yaga said:

Satsuma vases late 19c-20c well done go for $700 pair

Expand  

Just for interest, the one in this image by Yabu Meizan just sold in the UK for £18000 plus 30% premium, others have made more. Good Kinkozan is always in the thousands as is Seikozan, Sozan and all the other amazing Meiji artists. Price wise it’s up there with Ko-Kakiemon. Quality and price vary enormously just like swords and it takes a while to understand the subtle differences.

[ROKUJURO]

  On 11/15/2023 at 5:45 AM, Matsunoki said:

Jean, sorry, it is earthenware. Kutani is porcelain as is Arita, Seto, Nabeshima etc.....

Expand  

Ah, thank you Colin!

Now that is clear! I often read about SATSUMA porcelain and stoneware! WIKIPEDIA:  

Early Satsuma ware[edit]

Satsuma ware dating up to the first years of the Genroku era (1688–1704) is often referred to as Early Satsuma or ko-satsuma.^[7] The oldest remaining examples of Satsuma are stoneware made from iron-rich dark clay covered in dark glaze.^[

[Baba Yaga]

  On 11/15/2023 at 5:45 AM, Matsunoki said:

Jean, sorry, it is earthenware. Kutani is porcelain as is Arita, Seto, nabeshima etc

 

Baba, at that price they are rubbish. Try researching Yabu Meizan, Seikozan, Sozan(the artist working for a kinkozan) or jus t browse Bonhams “Satsuma”. The good stuff is very highly valued and Bonhams are for once experts in it.

Expand  

Ya ,,,,,,,,,,,,no kidding they are rubbish. Swords, Vases, Cars, I don't favor auction houses!!! 

[Baba Yaga]

  On 11/15/2023 at 7:30 AM, Matsunoki said:

Just for interest, the one in this image by Yabu Meizan just sold in the UK for £18000 plus 30% premium, others have made more. Good Kinkozan is always in the thousands as is Seikozan, Sozan and all the other amazing Meiji artists. Price wise it’s up there with Ko-Kakiemon. Quality and price vary enormously just like swords and it takes a while to understand the subtle differences.

Expand  

 

Nice wood box with stickers 

[Matsunoki]

  On 11/15/2023 at 2:42 PM, Baba Yaga said:

s, I don't favor auction houses!!! 

Expand  

Neither do I but I dealt in decent Satsuma for quite a few years and it is hugely popular outside auctions. Massive and very wealthy worldwide collector base. Not to your taste obviously Baba but the good stuff shows amazing skill and typical Japanese attention to minute detail. They were highly skilled craftsmen. 

[Baba Yaga]

  On 11/15/2023 at 3:06 PM, Matsunoki said:

Neither do I but I dealt in decent Satsuma for quite a few years and it is hugely popular outside auctions. Massive and very wealthy worldwide collector base. Not to your taste obviously Baba but the good stuff shows amazing skill and typical Japanese attention to minute detail. They were highly skilled craftsmen. 

Expand  

Yep, I've dealt with Satsuma, Cloisonne. Japanese bronze inlay vase for some time too. Sword Smiths actually were into vase manufacturing.