Update on Wakizashi

[Misterbovigoren]

48 minutes ago, ckaiserca said:

I think a key thing to remember is you can usually get a very nice blade in very good condition for less money than the price of buying a mediocre blade and having it polished. Sometimes, you find a real diamond in the rough that is worth having a restoration done on, but many (most?) blades that have been allowed to rust in someone's attic are probably not worth the effort and expense of a good quality polish.

That makes sense, I will definitely take that into consideration. Thank you for sharing your experience with me!

[ROKUJURO]

2 hours ago, Larason2 said:

I actually think Mr. Boomershine did a pretty good job. It's a bit rough, but it's a real sashikomi. ....

Carlos,

as you may know, you have to know the typical features of a blade or the work of a smith or school, before you start to polish. That is the basic knowledge of a trained TOGISHI. There is no standard procedure (or line of  stones) that works for all blades. 

 

Have you ever seen a good SASHIKOMI polish? This one cries "acid polish" and is obviously not treated traditionally. 

[Larason2]

Thanks Jean. 

 

Of course I've seen sashikomi polishes, I have several pieces I've polished with a sashikomi polish! I put a photo in this reply to try to prove myself right, but I think I actually proved myself wrong, so thanks for the correction. If you see below, on the left is a picture of an acid etch that comes on a reproduction sword, and on the right a proper sashikomi polish on the same sword, done by myself. Looking at the pictures posted above, the ha on that sword is actually more consistent with the acid etch shown on the left below. The hada and the colour on his sword is much better than most of the reproductions I have seen though, so I think that fooled me, but if you look in my pictures, on the acid etched side on the left there are hada lines that get thicker and thinner, and I think I see that on the previous sword too. So both of the elements were probably acid etched, as per my own evidence! So I still have much to learn - but I suppose this is how I do that!

 

[Franco D]

Good swords have been harmed and even ruined by amateur polishers. Excellent swords have been obscured by mediocre professional polishers. 

These things will continue to happen as long as sword owners continue to seek out and or recommend amateur polishers and mediocre professionals. 

When someone says 'this guy does an ok polish', what does that mean? Ok for who? According to what and whose standard? 

Amateur polishers that are sincere and serious will seek out an apprenticeship. It would be responsible for amateurs to set aside and put away their stones until that time.

[Larason2]

I disagree that amateurs shouldn't polish (obviously, since I am one), though I agree they shouldn't work on good or excellent swords (or even medium rate nihonto). There are many swords that no one else will polish, as well as reproductions, etc., and there are those like myself for whom the apprenticeship is impossible. In that case, my opinion is that a hand done traditional polish by an amateur is better than a poorly done belt sand and buff, or letting the piece continue to rust.

 

In this case, misterbovigoren did his sincere best to have the piece properly polished, and though apparently it was acid finished, I respect his good intention to have a piece polished that no one else would touch.

[ROKUJURO]

27 minutes ago, Larason2 said:

 ...... my opinion is that a hand done traditional polish by an amateur is better than a poorly done belt sand and buff, or letting the piece continue to rust.

 

In this case, misterbovigoren did his sincere best to have the piece properly polished, and though apparently it was acid finished, I respect his good intention to have a piece polished that no one else would touch.

Carlos,

there is no traditional polish that was done by an amateur. "Traditional" in this context means that it was done by a traditionally trained polisher.

The above blade was NOT " properly polished". You add correctly that it was "acid finished", which is everything but "properly polished".

Have a look:  http://www.ksky.ne.j...ie99/togistyles.html

[Larason2]

Ah, well when you put it that way, I cannot disagree!

[Baba Yaga]

1 hour ago, Larason2 said:

I disagree that amateurs shouldn't polish (obviously, since I am one), though I agree they shouldn't work on good or excellent swords (or even medium rate nihonto).

You didn't need not say anything, as I can tell you are armature by your reaction to a bad polish. 

Tell me, do you state your a amateur polisher when you sell, or trade?  

 

[Baba Yaga]

9 hours ago, Franco D said:

Good swords have been harmed and even ruined by amateur polishers. Excellent swords have been obscured by mediocre professional polishers. 

These things will continue to happen as long as sword owners continue to seek out and or recommend amateur polishers and mediocre professionals. 

When someone says this guy does an ok polish, what does that mean? Ok for who? According to what and whose standard? 

Amateur polishers that are sincere and serious will seek out an apprenticeship. It would be responsible for amateurs to set aside and put away their stones until that time.

 

Most of the key board collectors who say "this guy does an ok polish". They don't have a clue, thus the status of "Amateur". It doesn't cost so much and one doesn't have to wait.  

[Franco D]

4 hours ago, Larason2 said:

I disagree that amateurs shouldn't polish (obviously, since I am one), though I agree they shouldn't work on good or excellent swords (or even medium rate nihonto).

 

The problem is that an amateur polisher may not, will not, realize that they are working on a good or excellent sword. 

The problem is that a collector may not recognize exactly what it is they have or are looking at and off to the amateur or mediocre polisher it goes.

Amateur polishers and even mediocre professional polishers do not understand the mistakes that they are making. 

 

Regards,

 

 

Quote

 

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

Martin Luther King Jr.

 

 

 

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

There is a good text on TÔGI by Prof. Arnold Frenzel:
 

TOGISHI SHIGEKAZU Jimmy HAYASHI: A Report and Interview

Mr. Jimmy HAYASHI is a Japanese sword polisher who lives in the United States. The article was originally published by the JSS/US Vol.31, 1999, pp.51-62.   

[Rivkin]

Unfortunately every horror story with a good blade that I know of involved either a "top", highly recommended western polisher or a mid rank Japanese polisher who somehow got this job pushed on him, sometimes accompanied by a rather problematic request by a customer ("true sashikomi" tends to be featured in 50% of those cases). Because no one wants to make enemies in the community no one talks about it. There are plenty of beer buddies ready to chime in "I know John for thirty years and he is a fantastic person and an amazing polisher".

 

Sorry folks, then I see a non-traditional polish done on a low tier blade and there is a widespread desire to shame the people involved with an argument that it might have been a good blade.

Yes, a non-traditional polisher should be absolutely strict in working with showato and other things which are non-consequential.

There should be a solution to polish 500-1000$ blades. In Japan dealers do it themselves or have someone else with comparable skill do it. Frankly speaking I don't like the results, though yes, they do look more "traditional" compared to how americans do it.

Ten feet away the blade appears in a normal, fresh polish. The issue is when you move close you still can't really see anything, sometimes appraising it is impossible.

I don't this being an issue with the kind of work presented here.

Maybe one of the days american "modernists" will mess up a good sword, but so far I've seen this happening only with a very-very few representatives (actually one) of this club who are positioning themselves as professionals with proper education. They are the problem indeed.

 

And they are the part of a greater nihonto issue no one wants to talk about - arrogance.

Traditional Japanese craftsman in makie, embroidery, paper or other field is someone who works hard and enjoys little public recognition, driven by the desire to continue the craft and possibly their family tradition.

With Western craftsmen you often run into situation where a huge part of the motivation is being a sensei, someone who is addressed with respect and who gets to tell people what to do with their blades (kind of what I do on this forum?). 

Unfortunately with people of lower classes (let's put some bigotry in) this can be an important consideration. Often comes with a full package: rabid search for titles, awards, name dropping of famous people. Allah knows how many friends and "official successors" to Tanobe san dwell in a little country called the United States of America.

 

More to the point - people moved by such motivation often do crazy .... to blades just to show "they know better", "the original polish was improper", or even simply because they are lazy and decided to suddenly skip a few steps in the polishing process. And that's the kind of stuff I've seen frankly way too often in the West.

[Baba Yaga]

This was written in 1999 for a generation of collectors who understood masterful tradition. These aren't those time anymore, masterful tradition has about 10 more years until complete failure. It truly sad for humanity. 

[Misterbovigoren]

I just want to interject that I've learned quite a bit from all of your responses and I appreciate everyone taking the time to address their concerns and make their opinions known.  You are all helping me on my quest for knowledge and for that, I am sincerely grateful. 

[Baba Yaga]

2 hours ago, Rivkin said:

. There are plenty of beer buddies ready to chime in "I know John for thirty years and he is a fantastic person and an amazing polisher".

 

There should be a solution to polish 500-1000$ blades. 

 

And they are the part of a greater nihonto issue no one wants to talk about - arrogance.

 

 

The solution for 500-1000$ blades is DON;T BUY THEM.  They are worth about 0. Japan auctions are selling these NOT the USA. 

[Rivkin]

No one will criticize a WWI collector buying 120$ typical German saber or someone buying the most mass made 100$ WWII medal.

Seen plenty of such pieces in veteran's homes with stories worth their weight in blood.

500$ wakizashi and suddenly its a crime.

Cheap swords have a place to fill. Beginners best start with something affordable since given their level of knowledge and enthusiasm they are likely to loose this investment money anyway.

Every weapon deserves respect.

 

I hope one day there will be a price appropriate polishing solution as well.

So far my list of blades damaged beyond the pale easy has nothing to do with the acid and everything with proud people overthinking their options.

 

A few years back I saw Akihiro or Hiromitsu's waki, don't remember was it one or the other, in "true sashikomi"....

One of the most ghastly nihonto pieces I've seen.

Polish ordered by a westerner (it always is) who heard too many stories about acid and "superficial beauty" of hadori. Done by a known polisher who does not understand the method ...

Well, since there is no standard on "true sashikomi" everyone basically wings it. I am yet to see any two polishers doing it in a mutually consistent way.

In this case togishi probably did not have a lot of practice with Hiromitsu's school.

Result: Were it submitted after the polish rather than before, it would not have papered for sure.

For the past decade I see "true sashikomi" striking the Soshu turf every year. 100% bad outcomes.

Its VERY seldom the right polish for the school even when people understand what they are doing.

On the other hand, not as bad, but more recurrent - tons of Ichimonji where hadori is so high you can't see utsuri anymore besides couple of spots sticking from underneath. Essentially you just can't appreciate the blade.

There is very little perception in the community what the correct polish should look like, what are the options and how the blade can change depending on which school polishes it.

And if you call out the names, the loyalty machine will go into overdrive to protect the mistakes people make.

 

Instead every beginner collector is now panicking over "acid".

 

[Bazza]

THE DUCK'S GUTS MUST READ...

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/35486-a-word-about-amateur-polishing/#comment-367040

 

BaZZa

Who has been through this 'argument' dozens of times over some decades. The phrase that comes to mind is "There are none so blind as those who do not want to see".

[PNSSHOGUN]

On 11/14/2023 at 12:09 AM, Larason2 said:

I disagree that amateurs shouldn't polish (obviously, since I am one), though I agree they shouldn't work on good or excellent swords (or even medium rate nihonto). There are many swords that no one else will polish, as well as reproductions, etc., and there are those like myself for whom the apprenticeship is impossible. In that case, my opinion is that a hand done traditional polish by an amateur is better than a poorly done belt sand and buff, or letting the piece continue to rust.

 

In this case, misterbovigoren did his sincere best to have the piece properly polished, and though apparently it was acid finished, I respect his good intention to have a piece polished that no one else would touch.

 

Well that's a completely asinine opinion, to be ruined by rust or ruined by idiots? The action of rust is well known and predictable. The actions of an idiot will baffle the strongest minds for millennia to come. 

[Baba Yaga]

The largest issue in this very small community, collectors don't understand what a superior polish looks like. The top 20 Togishi  outside Japan can't make a dent in the market. So who's polishing 98% of the others? The unexperienced shortcutters who believe they can self start practicing on "whatever".  Most undoubtfully its your sword and not swords bought by them for practice. It's the sword mills and auctions which are looked at as "good deals".