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is this a real ww2 Japanese naval sword

zashmon

By zashmon
in Military Swords of Japan

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John C Veteran

John C

Posted
Posted

It's what we call a "souvenir" sword. Post war for the 8th Army PX; sold to US soldiers and sailors. Still some discussion as to whether or not the blades used were surplus or made specifically for the souvenir. Search NMB for "souvenir" for further info. Note the kabutogane and menuki are Army, while the blade is navy. The tsuba is a larger version of the army tsuba.

 

John C.

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Stephen Grand Master

Stephen

Posted
Posted

 

3 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Actually, most of them have the anchor stamp, and no mei.

You mean souvenir swords?

If so when was this found out?

Is this documented?

Trying to catch up here, sounds made up like island swords.

Bruce Pennington Grand Master

Bruce Pennington

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, Stephen said:

Wait nevermind,  I'll stay out of your little corner of NMB.

 

Ha!  No, all are welcome, as we can use all the eyes on the subject as possible.  And such questions are good.  They keep us all honest and up to speed.

 

I have 84 of these on file, with photos.  Most of them are stamped, and a few are double stamped!  The ones that show possibility of being war surplus are the ones with finished nakago jiri.  The majority of these aren't finished and most of them show heat 'damage' at the end, while the finished ones do not.  The difficulty with using non-finished jiri as a sign of post-war work is I have seen, and own one, a couple of dated war blades with unfinished jiri.  In the case of mine, it's a 1943 Yoshishige with a jiri that looks pinched off, and unfinished.  Although, mine doesn't show the heat damage.

 

Finished souvenir example                                          unfinished example  with heat damage                                                                    My '43 Yoshishige

 

s-l1600.thumb.jpg.3d924d36b81cc00929bead7510105d32.thumb.jpg.9bd09d6b07b346908c708ed10585a8f4.jpg       download(11).jpg.5a67389395b26be5fc237546250d803f.jpg    image_zpskav6ygsi.thumb.jpeg.5c7ed561a00c3f78f4c59f1fcc246681.jpeg

 

John C Veteran

John C

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, Stephen said:

Is this documented?

Stephen:

The clincher to their existence was this document showing its purchase from the PX. Others show actual production numbers, etc.

 

John C.

Wait...were just pulling Bruce's leg?

Screen Shot 2022-11-20 at 9.05.47 PM.png

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Stephen Grand Master

Stephen

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, John C said:

The clincher to their existence was this document showing its purchase from the PX. Others

 

Well yea most GI could not bring home war souvenir.....most did in clever ways, some very Enterprising fellows made a clever way to sell swords that was not brought home and found in storage buildings.

 

Wool is easily pulled over eyes who want to believe. 

 

And that's all I have to say about that. Lol

Jcstroud Proficient

Jcstroud

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

The ones that show possibility of being war surplus are the ones with finished nakago jiri.  The majority of these aren't finished and most of them show heat 'damage' at the end, while the finished ones do not. 

Malcolm Cox believes these were Arsenal products to shorten production time,I personally believe they were originally longer and cut to fit standard length koshirai. Cutting this type of anti-rust steel is not easy to saw cut nor file .there seems to be evidence that the cut ones most originated in Takayama forge. But that is my theory. Surplus? The truth is in all the details not all are the same.

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Jcstroud Proficient

Jcstroud

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, Stephen said:

Wool is easily pulled over eyes who want to believe. 

And just as easy for those who do not want to believe. Hey @Stephen do have any information on this storage building? Was it a U.S.Army surplus building? 

Just curious?

Jcstroud Proficient

Jcstroud

Posted
Posted
21 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Ha!  No, all are welcome, as we can use all the eyes on the subject as possible.  And such questions are good.  They keep us all honest and up to speed.

In reference to the question of whether these swords were wartime surplus... consider a recent comparison of two souvenir swords made by Toyosuke where the weights of both were within "point 2 ounces" reinforcing the Stringent RJT weight requirements.why would they care about exacting weights if they were intended to be a souvenir? This supports the theory that the were indeed intended for military use.

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vajo Grand Master

vajo

Posted
Posted

What RJT weight regiments?

 

:dunno:

 

RJT are star stamped blades. And there was no weight regiments. I have heavy and lighter swords with star stamp.

 

And what have RJT swords to do with those souvenir swords with crude mei??

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Jcstroud Proficient

Jcstroud

Posted
Posted

 RJT Manufacturing Specifications thread.

 

 

 

small:2.0〜2.1尺　　731.25〜768.75 grams

 

medium:2.1〜2.2尺　　768.75〜806.25 grams　

 

large:2.2〜2.3尺　　806.25〜843.75 grams

These specs. I was only using these specs as an example of the strict adherance of weight standards.

Jcstroud Proficient

Jcstroud

Posted
Posted

Mei,Mei,Mei....now getting back to the question: Is this a real Japanese Naval Sword?

The answer is yes .made by the Japanese Naval Sword Company in Zishi Japan also known as Tenshozan Tanrenjo .

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Jcstroud Proficient

Jcstroud

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, vajo said:

They are real souvenir swords made for soldiers that have no story to tell getting a Japanese sword on the battlefield. 

Boy you really like these swords dont you? Oh if these swords could only talk..... oh well I do like them they serve their intended purpose. To hang on the wall. And to remind us of what not to do..... harm others.

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vajo Grand Master

vajo

Posted
Posted

I have no feelings on this swords because they are the same as meiji tourist swords. I have a problem with it when a story is build around them to make them true swords, made for war and collectable for a higher price :laughing:

Bruce Pennington Grand Master

Bruce Pennington

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, vajo said:

I have no feelings on this swords because they are the same as meiji tourist swords. I have a problem with it when a story is build around them to make them true swords, made for war and collectable for a higher price :laughing:

Point well taken on the comparison to the Meiji tourist swords.  However, both they, and the PX swords have their place in history.  They were made for a reason and they have a story.  The Meiji swords tell of a time when sword makers were struggling to survive.  They tell of a time when foreigners were starting to discover Japan.  Likewise, the PX souvenirs tell of a time when Japan was defeated and almost destroyed, when MacArthur needed business and industry to survive and bring life back to Japan.  They were the stopper in the bottle of Japanese war swords.  And, in fact, many of the blades were likely made during the war.  Pricing?  Most mis-priced souvenirs are being sold by guys who have no idea they were made to be souvenirs.  There is 1 or 2 that I know of that know better and still list them as "Late war Navy Sword".  But what is the right price for such a sword?  As we all know, the market decides that.

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Jcstroud Proficient

Jcstroud

Posted
Posted
33 minutes ago, vajo said:

have a problem with it when a story is build around them to make them true swords, made for war and collectable for a higher price.

This "story built around them" is based on facts they are what they are.There is no shame in owning one.

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Jcstroud Proficient

Jcstroud

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Stephen said:

Not having a year in here yet please give me some background on your study. Dawson, Fuller,  books?

May I ask your age.

You come off rather glib, I do have a since of humor when I hear it.

To answer your question:Forgive me if I seem "glib" it is not my intention to be controversial . I only want to bring out insights on various observations about this type of swords based on my notes and studies about  them. My intent is know more about them,not to make them worth more they speak for themselves. I enjoy this forum and all the members contributions in the pursuit of knowing more about genuine Japanese swords which these are.this reminds me of what my dad used to say:  "I was jus pokin fun but yall took it serious" As to my age... likely older than yourself.

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