Are there any polishers in Europe

[Ford Hallam]

I can't speak for Jean, ( and he seems to have trouble speaking for himself as his French, English and Latin are all rusty ) but I wasn't arguing against papers at all. I was making a very specific point in relation to the point Jean made about that Jakushi tsuba and I went further to point out the dangers of over reliance on papers to inform one as to the aesthetic qualities of a given work.

 

In respect to developing a sophisticated understanding and appreciation of those qualities that papers never address my point remains valid I think Papers indicate the origin of the piece i.e. school, period, maker etc and the different levels of papers indicate differing levels of quality within those categories and exceptional and/or classic examples of schools and individual artists.

 

As for Hozon...well all genuine pieces can be granted those but within that category there's no further gradation in terms of quality, Hozon Tokubetsu accepted. So it follows that for the vast majority of works, genuine pieces that would be recognised as Hozon, any further qualitative judgement is left to the individual. Not all Hozon papers indicate works of equal merit.

 

regards,

 

Ford

[Stephen]

Does anyone know if there are there any polishers currently working in Europe?

 

the first post in this thread.

 

Maybe a split MODS??????

 

all good points on papers.........BUT!!

[Guido]

..., you are a very very lucky guy.

I'm sorry if this sounds offensive (or arrogant) but I'm reasonably sure that luck didn't play that much of a role.

[Ford Hallam]

...being born German probably helps being an ubermensch and all

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

are all rusty

 

 

[Ted Tenold]

I'm sorry if this sounds offensive (or arrogant) but I'm reasonably sure that luck didn't play that much of a role.

 

Evil twin on vacation Guido???

 

Well, anyways......."Luck favors the prepared"

[Chishiki]

Hi all. Well Jean and Ford, I find myself inadvertently involved in this discussion as I am the person who bought that Jakushi Tsuba you refer to off ebay. Incidentally it arrived today, and I must say I am very pleased with it. I would like to add my opinions to your comments as on most points I disagree with you.

 

1. You said “what is the point of getting a Tokubetsu Hozon paper on a mumei Jakushi tsuba”? Firstly from the commercial point of view, the main reason for buying this tsuba was that it is papered to TH level. Buying from the internet is full of pitfalls for anyone, no matter what your level is. I bid confidently know that a) the tsuba is correct and the paper corroborated the sellers description, and that b)whilst the photos weren’t particularly good I could be reasonably sure that it would be of a desirable condition and quality. You simply can’t get a good feeling about these subtleties, like iron quality, condition, and perspective by looking at a photo on the internet.

 

Your comments are are in your own way putting down a method of appraisal that has existed for generations, Kanteisho origami, whether it be for tosogu or swords. Your simplistic view may be applied to everything, why get a mumei, late muromachi period bizen sword papered to any level? Or for that matter why get a signed sword papered? If a signed sword is clearly right in your thinking, why get it papered? Commercial reasons mostly and verification of your opinion as to the items exceptional quality or rarity when compared to works of the same school or smith. I remember having a mumei sword polished and make it through to TH, I was thrilled. I am sure if I find a Jakushi out there and get it to TH level I will be equally thrilled.

 

2. People who know nothing about tsuba would be able to appreciate the items importance and quality if it has a high art level. It verifies what you say the item is.

 

3. In the future when it comes time to pass it on to someone else, if they are inexperience collectors, they can buy with the same confidence that I had. Not everyone Jean is as lucky as you to have reached some kind of nirvana in tosogu judgement.

 

4. In relation to this tsuba I admit don’t know much about this school. But the existence of the TH paper may indicate that whilst in is unsigned, if may belong to one of the 1st two generations, and a very good example when compared to tsuba of similar manufacture.

 

Lastly Jean and Ford. As you don’t rate Tokubetsu Hozon papers on mumei tsuba highly, I’d be interested in buying all you have. They must grow on trees where you live.

 

Mark

[Ford Hallam]

Mark,

 

perhaps you should actually have a go at reading what I wrote instead of constructing a straw man argument. As for the tsuba you bought of ebay...I didn't refer to it at all.

 

It was Peter ( sorry for dragging you in Peter :? ) who referenced the ebay item;

Here's a good example of a nice but overpriced Jakushi

and inadvertently helped make my case. If you are unable to judge for yourself you are at the mercy of other authorities. In this case, the paper may have contributed to the overpricing the work in question, in my and Peter's opinion.

 

 

I reiterated that I was in no way dismissing papers;

I wasn't arguing against papers at all.

I was making a very specific point in relation to the point Jean made about a specific Jakushi tsuba and I went further to point out the dangers of over reliance on papers to inform one as to the aesthetic qualities of a given work.

 

As for Hozon...well all genuine pieces can be granted those but within that category there's no further gradation in terms of quality, Hozon Tokubetsu accepted. So it follows that for the vast majority of works, genuine pieces that would be recognised as Hozon, any further qualitative judgement is left to the individual. Not all Hozon papers indicate works of equal merit.

 

My point was merely to suggest that an over reliance on papers as opposed to developing a genuine, personal, appreciation as to why a given piece is supposed to be "good" may be counter productive in the long run.

 

and when you suggest;

Your comments are are in your own way putting down a method of appraisal that has existed for generations

I would counter that you are the one being deliberately simplistic ( and, I suspect, somewhat disingenuous) and that your refusal to entertain the subtleties of the suggestion I was proposing may indicate your own inadequacies in this field...not mine. I am more than familiar with all of the arguments in favour of origami and shinsa, I was merely attempting to add a further dimension to the overall discussion. Perhaps I should refrain from scattering my pearls so readily

 

Lastly Jean and Ford. As you don’t rate Tokubetsu Hozon papers on mumei tsuba highly...

I'm not exactly sure how you reached this conclusion...but then again, as I wrote earlier, I did get the impression you didn't really bother reading what I wrote or if you did, you clearly didn't stop to think about it...

 

Ford

[Guido]

...being born German probably helps being an ubermensch and all

[reinhard]

With improved communication within this community we may ultimately reach a stage when well rounded collectors are able to evaluate, judge and discuss these issues among themselves and not be so dependant of external authority.

 

There are and have been too many presuming "well rounded collectors" on this board already giving false impression of their skills and knowledge. "External authority" is not a save haven in every case, but it is preventing beginners from doing the worst mistakes at least. - Talking with experts, who spent most of their lifetime with swords and/or fittings made me feel modest towards my own attempts of authentification. We should not try to establish our own rules unless we are intending to undermine any credibility, provided that we ever had one.

 

BTW it is quite easy to become an "ubermensch". Marry the girl with the small hands.

 

reinhard

[saipan59]

My simplified advice, for what it's worth:

1) Learn enough about kantei to approximately know your own limitations.

2) Spend your money based on what you have learned from 1).

3) Don't use origami as a substitute for 1).

 

Pete

[Jean]

Very well stated Pete

 

Once again, I was sure that I had some reactions to my post. I was not talking about the e-bay tsuba which is outstanding. BTW, at this level the question is not TH, the real one is : Is it worth Juyo or not.

 

Mark, you have never read or in diagonal the posts already written on the subject and my opinion on the subject :

 

- Kanteisho is worth for a mumei blade and to validate a mei. Now what is the difference between H and TH on swords, I think that with my small experience I can see it. I have a sword at the time being with H papers, that I won't bother to present to TH shinsa, the question being, is it at Juyo level?

 

Yes, TH has a commercial value and kanteisho also, Guido post is very self telling.

 

For myself, TH has mainly a commercial value compare to H papers.

 

I shall just quote some of your points to illustrate my points :

 

why get it papered? Commercial reasons mostly and verification of your opinion as to the items exceptional quality or rarity when compared to works of the same school or smith

Last part of your answer : Hozon is enough.

 

People who know nothing about tsuba would be able to appreciate the items importance and quality

yes

"if it has a high art level."

Here I doubt they' are able to perceive it as it take years

 

Firstly from the commercial point of view, the main reason for buying this tsuba was that it is papered to TH level

you are buying a paper

You simply can’t get a good feeling about these subtleties, like iron quality, condition, and perspective by looking at a photo on the internet.

Just a confirmation of what has been said above, you are relying on the kanteisho.

 

why get it papered? Commercial reasons mostly - and verification of your opinion

No, my swords are either H or J that the first part of your sentence - yes for the second part of your sentence.

 

 

In the future when it comes time to pass it on to someone else, if they are inexperience collectors, they can buy with the same confidence that I had

Buying Kanteisho

 

But the existence of the TH paper may indicate that whilst in is unsigned, if may belong to one of the 1st two generations

Too much "may", it is a gamble.

 

 

What I was stating is that TH is a very fuzzy notion. Why this intermediary level? Why not a Hozon level and then a Juyo one? Where is the scale? what is the space between the steps of the ladder? What is a low TH item and a High one?

 

It is interesting and has been debated among collectioneers a lot of time

 

I had an exchange of mail with Darcy concerning the value of Kanteisho and he said they were much praised for Commercial transactions but that he knows and probably Guido too swords worth more than 500k$ not even papered

[Ford Hallam]

Reinhard,

 

I concur exactly with your comments however my point was that there are areas of very important study in relation to the aesthetic qualities of particular items that are not "spelled out" by origami. My suggestion was not to do away with papers but rather that we need to gain a better understanding as why a piece has a been given it's specific grading. I hope that, despite my reputation as a heretic , it wasn't imagined I was proposing we simply start making up our own rules. I was, rather, arguing for a more thorough understanding of why things are judged to be as they are.

 

As an example, If I'm presented with a Ko-Akasaka tsuba that comes with either TH, J or even JT it would be helpful to have some indication as to what exactly makes the difference....not just, "it's better quality" or that it's old and by the first master. Why is the first master considered the best?, would be my question.

 

A discussion on the specific merits of that individual piece, the workmanship ( and that in itself is a complex issue), the rarity and age (if this is a significant aspect), the aesthetic qualities of the material and the condition. All these issues can be explored and I maintain that this exercise is what ultimately really educates us in the art of the sword. Knowing all the labels and categories doesn't necessarily indicate any real appreciation or understanding, it may in fact even become a barrier to true connoisseurship.

 

With a more nuanced appreciation of the "why", we may be better equipped to evaluate un-papered work and perhaps even to make a better assessment of the relative merits of individual pieces within a given level of paper.

 

regards,

 

Ford

[Chishiki]

Ford, I expected to receive some flak for posting my opinion in regards to the value of NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon papers in assessing this piece. It seems that voicing an opinion which contradicts yours has brought out some sensitivities and a condescending retort. Whilst I don’t know you apart from your posts here on NMB it seems you consider yourself somewhat of an oracle in tosogu. And now you are a valuer also? As for me I don’t and never will hold myself out to be an expert. It’s not for you to say who pays what is right or wrong, the market decides and in this case the market was me. We all collect what we like and pay accordingly as pieces present themselves.

 

My opinion is as valid as yours regarding the value of tokubetsu hozon papers when assessing the quality and value of this tsuba. I also get a warm fuzzy feeling knowing that the experts at the NBTHK, the organization that really matters, think issuing papers to such pieces goes some way to showing the world that it is a fine example. I feel no shame in embracing the commercial aspect of it also.

 

If you feel one should rely on their own knowledge in assessing the worth of a piece and its artistic merit rather than using a NBTHK paper, what is the purpose of you entering competitions in that very organization? You clearly value their opinion right? Well so do I. Don’t you use your successes with the NBTHK as a selling point for your pieces?

 

Jean, I can’t argue with your responses and can only say that whilst I put a monetary and commercial value on a TH paper, it doesn’t mean I can’t make my own judgment based on the artistic merit of a particular piece.

 

Mark

[Jean]

Mark wrote

 

it doesn’t mean I can’t make my own judgment based on the artistic merit of a particular piece.

 

Mark, I am sure you can or you won't put up this money on a TH tsuba.

 

I believe in Hozon kanteisho to validate a mei or to kantei an unsigned Tosogu/kodogu.

I have unsigned tsubas with H certificates and other with no certificate which are at TH hozon level, I won't bother to have them passed TH and I am sure that I am wrong because it will have more monetary value with TH paper.

 

In fact my thought is that TH is more commercial and H is not enough selective while very instructive.

 

I know an Antiques dealer who shall only accept TH swords whatever the quality.

I know another one who will accept only papered swords about 70cm long and in koshirae.

 

One thing is sure, the certificate system is biaised by commercial market value. as all Art markets

[Ford Hallam]

Mark,

 

I don't know why you're feeling as though I'm the one being unreasonable when it was you who chose to misrepresent my comments. I wasn't even aware of you, or your tsuba, until you chose to have a go at Jean and myself as you did.

 

What you choose to value and send your money on is your affair. I merely pointed out that in the case of your tsuba I felt that perhaps it's price may have been somewhat raised ( as did Peter) as a result of it's papers rather than any intrinsic qualities per se. That was an opinion...I wouldn't have spent the money on it is all I meant. Is that ok by you?

 

The other points I have tried to express where not actually directed at you at all, merely an alternative idea to consider in the mix when considering the usefulness of papers in general. I deliberately avoided all mention of their commercial usefulness as it was not what I was addressing.

 

As for this;

it seems you consider yourself somewhat of an oracle in tosogu. And now you are a valuer also?

 

Simply suggesting that I felt something was a bit expensive hardly makes the claim to be a valuer. In fact we all, regularly, make similar judgements without being so accused. As for being an oracle....I'll leave that to others to decide but I would suggest that I do have a reasonable degree of qualification in the technical aspects of this craft and my grounding in art and aesthetics probably does give me a significant advantage over those who lack such education.

 

As for NBTHK competitions....I haven't entered one for about 8 years...and for the same reasons as I eluded to in my initial comments regarding the dangers of over reliance on papers and other authorities in establishing and evaluating aesthetic criteria.

 

nuff said,

 

f

[Eric H]

I had an exchange of mail with Darcy concerning the value of Kanteisho and he said they were much praised for Commercial transactions but that he knows and probably Guido too swords worth more than 500k$ not even papered

Indeed, there was in a earlier thread a significant statement by Darcy Brockbank and the last sentence brings it on the point. The discussion is very interesting

Eric

[Jean]

My question to Darcy was the following after he gave me the price of his Go Yoshihiro :

 

That's the price of a good Tokuju. Go Yoshihiro being so scarce, don't

> you think yours could have gone Tokuju?

>>

>> In term of prices, though I have no experience in these fields,

> Masamune should be the most expensive then Kiyomaro, Go Yoshiro

 

His full answer was :

 

Actually the price of a good Tokuju by a decent smith is about the price of a Go Yoshihiro. The level of papers of a Go is secondary to who has made the blade and the quality.

>

> People get papers and swords inverted all the time . If a sword is a masterpiece of Masamune, it was valuable and precious and beautiful for many centuries before the NBTHK came into existence. So it's erroneous to assign the value of the sword based on what the NBTHK has to say. The NBTHK should just be viewed as confirmation of importance and accuracy. The NBTHK can though elevate some among others, but this is kind of a relative sorting out, if you have a Tokuju Go you know that you have one of the better ones. It doesn't set a price range for the sword though, the sword sets the price range not the papers.>

> There are only about 35 Go Yoshihiro that are available to purchase. This one was one of the possessions of the Nabeshima Daimyo. I have no doubt that acquiring it was very expensive to him then, and when the NBTHK is gone and past history centuries from now, it will still have cost the current owner a lot of money to buy.>

> If you have $600,000 or more you can look at the purchase of a Masamune daito. I've arranged the sale of three blades more expensive than $250k now.

>

> I once had an ubu Hisakuni in hand that the owner refused a million dollars for. This sword only had Hozon papers. After he died the family put it up for sale at $500,000. We all had a laugh when examining the sword because the dealer shook his head and went "only Hozon" cracking a joke at his gaigin audience. Because so many western people let papers guide them on the price, there would be many collectors who would not even look at the sword twice because it was "only Hozon" and would say that the price is not right for a blade that is "only Hozon." A smart collector would understand that what he was holding was something that would received Kokuho designation if someone asked for it. Ubu, signed Hisakuni that looked like Shinshinto it was so well taken care of. Only Hozon .

>

> I have photographs of Dr. Compton's signed Ichimonij that was auctioned in New York for $450,000 at Christie's. It should be in the Compton collection book. I photographed the sword in Italy last year.

>

> These are all swords that are at the world class level, and it's very hard to find them, they are special among special blades.

[Guido]

This is getting silly. Darcy makes some very valid points - as did others in this thread. Let's leave it at that, o.k.?

 

And btw, according to a statistic by Ginza Chôshûya, Kiyomaro fetches on average higher prices than Masamune. But how many of us are in the market for such as sword?

[Ford Hallam]

I've just been studying that ebay Jakushi that Peter referenced and Mark bought.

 

I was under the impression it came with Tokubetsu Hozon papers, and Mark, you certainly suggested that it did also but your claim that such papers are reassuring when buying off the internet. However, I find no reference to such papers in the description of the piece offered by the vendor.

 

Only this;

 

In the terminology of NBTHK, it is sure that it could easily pass the Maru-toku(Tokubetsu-Hozon) which means the certificate of high quality, and it seems this masterpiece has high possibilities that it can acquire the Jyuyo(Jyuuyou) as well.

 

So it would seem even the vendor didn't feel it warranted being papered and merely reassures prospective buyers that "it could easily pass" Hozon Tokubetsu.

 

I especially like this bit; :D

Since this piece is such a valuable piece, you may not understand the true value of this piece unless you are an expert. Therefore this piece is only recommended to whom can understand.

 

So in reality we have a situation where a fine piece had to be judged in the absence of any confirming papers and merely on the evident qualities the piece itself exhibits. It seems to have stood up to that examination well, if the $4000 price tag is anything to go by.

[Henry Wilson]

The box is nice.

[Chishiki]

Hi Ford, I see where some confusion may have crept into the discussion. The tsuba I actually bought is

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... K:MEWNX:IT

 

I know the tsuba you are referring to, someone put that in the discussion as a matter of interest. I did not buy it. Please see the link above or search for item 250503171783.

 

Regards

 

Mark

[Ford Hallam]

Right...thanks for clearing that up Mark. So no-one was referencing your tsuba ...all just a big mix up after all still, I had fun and no animals were harmed :D

 

fwiw; the tsuba you bought looks to be quite a fair example and the price not unreasonable...but I'm no valuer

 

I'd be interested to hear your opinion of the other Jakushi tsuba though and I think we can take the asking price as being negotiable :?

 

regards,

 

Ford

[Jesper]

Hi all,

It´s amazing how this thread developed the two days I have been off-line :D

 

Thank you all for your input on my polishing question. Just some final words: I am fully aware that a very good polisher would be reluctant to polish a gendaito. As I said, I have just bought the sword last week for a very small amount. I do not collect gendaito and never considered giving the sword an expensive high quality polish, but just wanted to fix it up a little. However, it is not on the top of my priority list.

 

All the best

 

Jesper

[Brian]

Jesper,

Sorry your topic got so convoluted. In fact, so much so that it is impossible to split it properly and create 2 topics. However I think your question was answered, and if not, I am sure others will comment.

As Guido said...This is getting silly. Darcy makes some very valid points - as did others in this thread. Let's leave it at that, o.k.?

 

Brian

[Stone]

I am amazed at what "" seem's"" to be a great wealth & depth on

polishing & polishers out there. I would suggest you have the best

that you can afford. The best and the most expensive are not always the same thing!

What a caterpillar calls the End of the World

 

A Master calls a Butterfly

R.Bach

T.Norman.

[Stone]

Sorry it should read, Wealth & depth of " knowledge" ect

T.Norman.

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Tony,

 

welcome to the forum. I trust all's well with you

 

best regards,

 

Ford

[Stone]

Hi Ford,

Thank you for your welcome, I have just managed to work

out how to log on. I hope to contribute more at a later date

Wishing you and yours all the best.

Tony.

T. Norman.