"Green papers mean no papers"

[Toryu2020]

Darcy did a whole article on this subject - do we know if it was preserved somewhere? Yes I looked at the member's articles section...

Any help appreciated,

 

-t

[Ray Singer]

Hi Thomas, that article and the other blog articles Darcy wrote are accessible from these archives.

 

https://web.archive....://blog.yuhindo.com/

 

Best,

Ray

 

 

[Toryu2020]

Cheers Ray!

[Toryu2020]

Here's the direct link - this should be an article in the members section...

 

Green papers = no papers – The Cutting Edge (archive.org)

Green Papers Pt. 2 – The Cutting Edge (archive.org)

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

33 minutes ago, Toryu2020 said:

Here's the direct link - this should be an article in the members section...

 

Green papers = no papers – The Cutting Edge (archive.org)

Green Papers Pt. 2 – The Cutting Edge (archive.org)

agree

[NewB]

Not here to bicker with folks that know way more but - Debatable. Big names - no papers. I witnessed at the April shinsa that they were EXTREMELY cautious of even reissuing papers of blades that have been published before OR smiths with little works existent and no extended book information with supportive kantei of well respected members of the nihonto world. 
 

y

[kissakai]

Not my field but I think old papers are OK and give more detail than their ne equivalents as long as it is not a BIG named smith

Same for tsuba

 

[Gakusee]

12 minutes ago, kissakai said:

Not my field but I think old papers are OK and give more detail than their ne equivalents as long as it is not a BIG named smith

Same for tsuba

 

Used to be but not any more really  …. Darcy explained well why….

One needs to be very knowledgeable, the blade and paper cannot have left the U.K. for 45 years (ie not resubmitted); the owner must have lived in oblivion for the last 45 years; the paper was not issued by a regional branch, etc etc = quite a few conditions for the Kicho etc paper to have the slightest chance.

Small, obscure smith and not a high-end item that never left back to Japan or never had been resubmitted to the peregrinations NTHK shinsa coming to the US or U.K…..There is some small possibility but that has diminished so much over the last few decades. 

[Baba Yaga]

A few years back a "box" full of green papers were for sold on epray. and "someone" in the U.S. purchased them. Seller was Japan, Knowledge is power.  

[AlphaRaider]

Is there a link to a list of often forged names or examples? I have a green paper 2nd gen Kunisada of AIZU Provence I got a little over a year ago. I'll get the paperwork from the display and photograph it tomorrow. I think it's this green color mentioned.

 

my org. post of the sword is here 

 

 

Thanks, Jonathan H.

 

[NewB]

The serial number script on your certificate is NOT what they used

Just so everyone efen knows

 

 

Y

[Brian]

11 hours ago, Toryu2020 said:

Here's the direct link - this should be an article in the members section...

 

Green papers = no papers – The Cutting Edge (archive.org)

Green Papers Pt. 2 – The Cutting Edge (archive.org)

I'd love to, I know Darcy would have wanted that. But not sure how copyright works, I think it passes to the family.
If I had permission, I would archive a bunch of them.

[Toryu2020]

As long as it is for educational purposes you should be able to use it - full credit to the author and all...

 

-t

[DTM72]

So with everything above being said, what about the NBTHK 1980 shinsa held in the USA? I have a kozuka that was given Tokubestu Kisho (green) papers. This was apparently the highest level paper available at the US shinsa. I have multiple (recently) papered blades, but this is the first papered fitting I own. Just wanting to know if there were any questions as to the outcome of that shinsa. This piece came from the Mike Quigly collection, and was submitted by him.

 

https://www.nihontoc...se_sword_papers.html

 

[Toryu2020]

Personally I agree with Darcy's conclusion, all papers from that era are poisoned. Does it mean your item is bad? No, the item still has to speak for itself. Does your own research confirm the attribution, do others agree with the attribution when studying the piece in hand? Have you the confidence to submit it for new papers?

 

The real take-away is for new buyers, do not give any weight to these papers, buy your items based on the quality that can be seen and do not be swayed by these papers.

 

-t

[Dependazelle]

This thread is really helpful as I’ve seen a few items floating around with green papers. Would the same cautions apply to blue and white papers? I think the answer is ‘yes’, but want to confirm. 
 

-Richard S. 

[Mark S.]

As stated, always be cautious with old papers, but let item stand for itself.  I have a Bizen Osafune ju Yokoyama Sukekane wakizashi dated “a day in February 1862” that has a 1961 NBTHK Kicho Hozon (white paper) and just received NTHK-NPO paper in 2023.  I would consider old papers a ‘starting point’ for research to confirm the blade and/or mei matches the claim.  

[Dependazelle]

Thanks, Mark. That makes sense. Viewing older papers as potentially helpful but requiring further research/verification seems like a good approach. 

[ckaiserca]

7 hours ago, Mark S. said:

As stated, always be cautious with old papers, but let item stand for itself.  I have a Bizen Osafune ju Yokoyama Sukekane wakizashi dated “a day in February 1862” that has a 1961 NBTHK Kicho Hozon (white paper) and just received NTHK-NPO paper in 2023.  I would consider old papers a ‘starting point’ for research to confirm the blade and/or mei matches the claim.  

I have a mumei katana that had two different white papers, one from 1960 that attributes it to Shitahara, and one from 1975 that attributes it to Fujishima. I submitted the blade for Shinsa in 2021, and it papered as Hozon attributed to Mino Senjuin. Clear as mud.

[Rivkin]

10 hours ago, ckaiserca said:

I have a mumei katana that had two different white papers, one from 1960 that attributes it to Shitahara, and one from 1975 that attributes it to Fujishima. I submitted the blade for Shinsa in 2021, and it papered as Hozon attributed to Mino Senjuin. Clear as mud.

Muromachi pieces, probably 70% kantei can't be done with certainty. Too many similarities, any new submission will yield a new name. Green papers, Kanzan and Nishu sayagaki - got to see if its something that can or can't be definitively kanteied. If it says Yamato Tegai or Naminohira, chances are good it will stand the test of time. If it says Shizu Kaneuji its probably Muromachi Mino or Sue Soshu.

[Franco]

'The sword (or fitting) confirms the paper and not the other way around.' 'Buy the sword (or fitting), not the paper.'

Collectors new and old would be wise to adhere to this insight and advice.

Having said that, if memory serves, papers from those late 70's and early 80's USA NBTHK shinsa, especially those with big names, should be approached with a healthy dose of cynicism, caution, and suspicion. As for green papers in general, from a collecting perspective please refer back to the first line of this paragraph, while at the same time recognizing that they are considered outdated. 

 

Regards, 

 

 

Desire is the cause of suffering.

 

 

[Stephen]

All papers = benjo kami ... MOPO

 

 

 

Edit to add because I never could afford LOL

Edited January 15, 2024 by Stephen
See add