Cleaning Spider webs & stains

[Bruce Pennington]

We got to discussing this on the Edo thread, so I thought I'd start a new one to avoid sidetracking that thread needlessly.  @Bugyotsuji has posted a statement from someone: 

"Despite some discolourings and one ‘spiderweb’ rust(?) nest, he and a smith who was watching both agreed that it will clean up with other methods, short of Togi work. Use oil and alcohol (ethanol?) alternatively to lift and shift it, and clean it off with uchiko they said. “But the hiké cannot be helped…"

I have a star-stamped gendaito by Kunitoshi with some black stains, and what I think is meant by spider-web stains that I would like to see if I could clean up, and was hoping to find out if this oil/alcohol combo would help.  

 

Anyone have any success?

 

I am away from home for 2 days, so I'll have to use some old photos.  I can update later with better ones.  I realize a polish is the best solution, but now that I'm retired, it will be a long time from now before I have $2,000+ for it.

 

 

[DoTanuki yokai]

What you have is much more then the „spider webs“ Bruce. Maybe I can dig up some old pictures later when I find time. 
The spider webs are some white staining that is not really visible from every angle but very prominent when looking at the Hamon of a blade. 
 

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks, I'd appreciate that.  These are the only 2 shots I have of the hamon at the moment.  That finger print is not mine, and I don't recall if I've removed it, or it's permanent, but I'll find out when I get back home.

[Scogg]

Hi Bruce,

I've had mild success on a similarly out-of-shape blade with alcohol, oil, and some patience.

 

After a thorough wipe-down with isopropyl and a microfiber cloth. I then apply a generous amount of pure clear mineral oil. I then cover the blade with 1 layer of saran wrap, so the generous amount of oil stays in contact with the blade, and the problem-areas. Then I let it sit overnight. Be careful to angle/prop the blade, so oil does NOT drip down onto the nakago, but rather drips toward the kissaki.

A day later, I remove the saran wrap, and wipe the blade with microfiber cloth. I then apply oil to the problem areas, and very gently wipe clean until nothing "comes up" onto the microfiber. 

Obviously this is no substitution for a polish from a trained togishi. BUT it has worked for me to remove some gunk and active rust.

I've heard of people doing this method, and also using a piece of horn or bone to "scrape" away at the corrosion, but i've always been too afraid to try that method. 

I'll be following along with this thread to see what others have to say. If this method brings up any red-flags to anyone, I am all ears and here to learn!

Cheers,
-Sam

 

[rematron]

@GeorgeLuucas, I agree with your reasoning for following this thread.  I like your suggestions and might try them.  I have a mid 1500's katana that I'd like to clean up as carefully as I can.  I don't think it's quite worth a polish but I'd like to at least remove some of the black and that might give me a better idea of how to proceed with it, short of sending it away for a professional opinion.  But, if I can't do this in a way that is not harmful, I will not. 

[Stephen]

Did a deep search on board

 

Best I could find

 

This is spider rust....seems the turm has morph into different stains.

[Nihonto Chicken]

In my experience, any steel oxidation (rust), whether from light white frosting to spider webs to crusty brown patches, leaves pits.  Yes, that does include thin white discoloration, though in that case the pits are so small, they may not be readily visible on a poor polish.  Any non-abrasive removal (vinegar, Evaporust, naval jelly, whatever) will take away the rust, but leave the pits.  Even reverse electrolytic process will leave some pitting (yes, it will convert iron oxides back into metallic iron, but it all won't be in the same place in which it started).  Very light pitting as from white frosting may possibly be removed by some heavy duty uchiko work, though this amount of effort will partially erase the yokote if applied there.  There isn't any way around it, rust=pitting, and the only way to completely correct it optically is by use of abrasives.  My opinion, not looking for a flame war or pissing contest, YMMV.

[Bruce Pennington]

That explains the pitting on my blade.

[Bugyotsuji]

Guess I need to fess up n take some of the responsibility here, instead of leaving it all on Bruce’s shoulders.

 

This is the original culprit that kicked off the discussion. Changes colo(u)r depending on the lighting.

 

 

 

 

 

[1kinko]

You’ll better know more about blades than me, a fittings guy, but that looks like a blister due to polishing over an incomplete weld to me. My 1 1/2 cents.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 11/2/2023 at 3:41 AM, Bugyotsuji said:

the original culprit

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Dang Piers!  That looks almost identical to the one in my first photo!

[DoTanuki yokai]

Here is what I talk about  

 

 

and here is the same blade 2 years later with only regular maintenance with uchiko and oil. 

[Nihonto Chicken]

  On 11/2/2023 at 12:47 AM, Nihonto Chicken said:

In my experience, any steel oxidation (rust), whether from light white frosting to spider webs to crusty brown patches, leaves pits.  Yes, that does include thin white discoloration, though in that case the pits are so small, they may not be readily visible on a poor polish.  Any non-abrasive removal (vinegar, Evaporust, naval jelly, whatever) will take away the rust, but leave the pits.  Even reverse electrolytic process will leave some pitting (yes, it will convert iron oxides back into metallic iron, but it all won't be in the same place in which it started).  Very light pitting as from white frosting may possibly be removed by some heavy duty uchiko work, though this amount of effort will partially erase the yokote if applied there.  There isn't any way around it, rust=pitting, and the only way to completely correct it optically is by use of abrasives.  My opinion, not looking for a flame war or pissing contest, YMMV.

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Edit: heavy duty uchiko work (which I recommend for rusted swords, search here on "Jim Kurrasch power uchiko"), will also remove hadori as well as yokote, though I failed to mention this since I've never had a rusted sword with hadori.  Uchiko is abrasive, but on a minor scale.  Again a warning, uchiko only (or a reasonable facsimile, for which I refrain from posting from fear of being flame broiled).  Do not use hard western style abrasives such as Flitz and Simichrome, which will burnish the surface metal, turning it into a silver mirror and obscuring, rather than revealing, the internal hataraki. 

[Bugyotsuji]

Update since the above. It does seem to be working.
 

Same blade, same spider, but the spider just a shadow of its former self.

 

 

 

 

[Stephen]

  On 11/6/2023 at 10:58 AM, Bugyotsuji said:

Update since the above. It does seem to be working.
 

Same blade, same spider, but just a shadow of its former self.

 

 

 

 

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Not reading all the way back. 

This change is from uchiko use?

[Bugyotsuji]

  On 11/6/2023 at 12:04 PM, Stephen said:

Not reading all the way back. 

This change is from uchiko use?

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Yes, chōji oil and uchiko repetitions over the last week or so. Nothing else apart from the tissues.

[Stephen]

Thank you Bugs

[ROKUJURO]

It does not seem to be clear that all forms of iron corrosion are not material that builds up on the surface of the metal and would be easy to remove. The iron takes part in the chemical process so there will always be a material loss. This implies that all alcohol or oil use can only take away so much loose corrosion particles, but will not provide a level surface.

UCHIKO on the other hand is a mild abrasive that grinds the surface to an extent, taking away more of the corrosion, even in low pits. In fact, we are talking about a thousandth of a millimeter (= 0,001 mm) of material removal in the long range.

If there is already considerable corrosion damage, there is no other way than to have a TOGISHI grind the metal surface down so the pits are removed. Of course this cannot be done endlessly which is why it is so important to keep rust away from sword blades.

[Bugyotsuji]

Yesterday I was able to confirm that the other ingredient mentioned in conversation the other day was 無水エタノール Musui Eta-no-ru, absolute or dehydrated ethanol. (I've had pretty good results so far without having to use it.)