First nihonto, edo period wakizashi. Is it legit?

[Karasunoir]

Hello!

 

I have aquired an wakizashi

supposedly Edo period

Signature is Hizen no kuni ju Tadayoshi 
Nagasa is 54 cm

 

Its my first antique Japanese sword, so i hoped to get a bit more info  

Is it legit? I submiting for an NBTHK out of the question for example?

Bought it on the sbg forums 

Also, i uploaded the images here, is it better to use image hosting site like imgur or reddit and link instead?

 

Jone

[Ray Singer]

An authentic antique Japanese sword yes, but legit as in an authentic Tadayoshi I unfortunately don't think so. It is very common to see gimei blades sold out of Japan with only a torokusho and no papers, and sold unpapered for a reason (such as a questionable inscription). 

 

Understood that the sword was bought at the SBG, but very likely before that it came out of Japan through an online auction.

[Karasunoir]

I see, thanks for the response

What are the signs of Gimei here? Trying to learn as mutch as possible

[Baba Yaga]

15 minutes ago, Karasunoir said:

I see, thanks for the response

What are the signs of Gimei here? Trying to learn as mutch as possible

 

Big name wakizashi sword going for cheap. 

 

Seems the 1st timers go for the big fish story ,  Wakizashi was the most produced sword in Japan as "almost" everyone got to wear one. 

 

[Ed Harbulak]

The second character of the signature, zen of Hi-zen, is written the correct Japanese way, but the entire Tadayoshi family of sword smiths wrote that zen character slightly differently. Compare the second character of the signature on your blade with an authentic example of a Tadayoshi signature. In addition, the entire signature looks very crudely written and very angular, again compare with a genuine signature and you will see the difference. Other than the signature, it's a very nice looking authentic Japanese sword and a fine first blade for your collection.

[Geraint]

Dear Jone.

 

To add somewhat to Patricius' response, with which I agree.  A mei essentially has a handwriting, a style of cutting.  The kanji might read the right thing but be cut in the wrong style or even using the wrong kanji, (compare the Kuni kanji with the example).  Add to that, certain smiths used particular forms of mei and one that falls outside that form is a red flag.  Other factors include the shape of the nakago and the nakago jiri, the yasurime, the position of the mekugi ana and the relationship between that and the mei, the alignment of the mei on the nakago and so on.  Many factors to study but after you have seen amany examples you begin to get a feel for what it should look like and if you have seen, handled and studied as Ray has then your instant response is quite likely to be the right one.  Note, this is all based on the nakago and mei, we haven't even started on the workmanship in the blade matching the smiths work!

 

Probably enough for now, here is one to compare, https://www.aoijapan...izen-kuni-tadayoshi/

 

All the best.

[Ray Singer]

28 minutes ago, Karasunoir said:

What are the signs of Gimei here? Trying to learn as mutch as possible

The mei of the generations of the Tadayoshi school are well documented and this one is well outside of the range of what is expected from the mei of any generation of Tadayoshi. There are very large numbers of gimei Tadayoshi in the world, and a Tadayoshi with no papers being sold from Japan with only a torokusho should be treated with caution. You can see examples of Tadayoshi school mei here.

https://www.hizento.com/

[Ray Singer]

More examples below.

https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=0142ee30e47b34d6&rlz=1C1GCEU_enUS954US954&sxsrf=AM9HkKl213UmRRcxGsAfikS9ckM2EdwwmA:1698848099544&q="肥前國住忠吉"&tbm=isch&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwisroCs_qKCAxUrSzABHTpMAfkQ0pQJegQIDRAB&biw=1536&bih=811&dpr=2.5

[Karasunoir]

Thanks for the info people!

I can see the diffrence, so gimei then 

 

was not served any "big fish story" did not know the smith was that famous. Had probably been a red flag if i had known

 

The important thing for me is that the sword is a genuine Japanese blade  Its my first nihonto, so i realy wanted a "study piece", that i could use to learn more

Other than the signature, how does the blade look? 

One of the primary reasons for going with that sword was getting the "whole package". A blade with koshirae, swordbag and a kozuka

[Franco D]

1 hour ago, Karasunoir said:

The important thing for me is that the sword is a genuine Japanese blade  Its my first nihonto, so i realy wanted a "study piece", that i could use to learn more

Other than the signature, how does the blade look? 

 

In kanteisho it's the sword that confirms the signature and not the other way around.

Based upon that premise why isn't this sword a Hizen-to?

Or is it? 

And, if it is not a Hizen blade, then what is it? 

Why?

Homework.

 

Regards,

 

 

[Karasunoir]

thanks!

[Jacques D.]

I wonder what people are talking about when they talk about study pieces. To me, all shoshin blades are study pieces, especially those made by highly talented swordsmiths. What is there to learn from a clearly gimei blade? In my opinion, not much.

[Baba Yaga]

I guess it's what a person learns by mistake, or in many cases receive a swindling. In this case ask what the shark likes to eat before swimming with the sharks. 

[Franco D]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

What is there to learn from a clearly gimei blade? In my opinion, not much.

 

Well, that all depends. 

 

What is this blade? 

Some copies are actually good blades.

Is this a good blade? why? why not? 

What schools were known for copying? 

Was this blade made by one of those schools?

If so, which one?

 

What makes this mei such an obvious fake?

Was it meant to fool as this mei should fool no one?

What other possibilities, explanation, might there then be for this blade?

Did the original owner know this blade was a fake from its inception?

If so, then what might be the explanations? Cost? What would have a genuine blade cost vs a copy?

 

There's the lesson of realizing that it's not necessary to buy a sword to learn the lesson of not to buy such a sword. 

 

And, last but perhaps not least is the lesson of learning to recognize when it's time to let go of a sword.

 

TTFN

 

p.s. let's not forget what it was like to learn from nothing in what is an otherwise such a difficult discipline as the world of nihonto study.

 

 

 

 

 

[rematron]

2 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

I wonder what people are talking about when they talk about study pieces. To me, all shoshin blades are study pieces, especially those made by highly talented swordsmiths. What is there to learn from a clearly gimei blade? In my opinion, not much.

 

Since the mei is only one aspect of a nihonto, I'd say there is plenty to learn from any blade in decent polish.  What activities does it have?  How do they look in hand compared to photos online or in books?  How do the parts work with each other to keep the sword together?  What are the parts shaped like?  What are they called?  I think it's important to keep in mind that there are different levels of experience in collecting and studying nihonto.  Even a gimei blade if carved traditionally can open the novice (shoshin) mind to the process of adding a mei to a nakago.  

 

My own preference is not to own a gimei blade because it might be more difficult to sell in the future if and when I'm done with it.

[Jacques D.]

Quote

 

What is this blade? 

Some copies are actually good blades.

Is this a good blade? why? why not? 

What schools were known for copying? 

Was this blade made by one of those schools?

If so, which one?

 

What makes this mei such an obvious fake?

Was it meant to fool as this mei should fool no one?

What other possibilities, explanation, might there then be for this blade?

 

 

Answering these questions requires a real knowledge, and this knowledge can only be acquired by having held hundreds of blades in your hands.

[Karasunoir]

Thanks for the responses people

In Norway, accsess to swords (repo or antique) is extremely limited. There was one limited exhibition in oslo some months ago, where you could see a nihonto, but other than that there is not that mutch. We have some good viking era swords though Repo swords are mostly illegal. Not illegal to own, but illegal to sell, so hey...
The culture here is very "anti-weapon", so finding communities, exhibitions etc around swords is rather difficult. There is around 100 people doing kendo, and 30 doing katori shinto ryu in the contry for example. So there are very few persons here that knows anything about swords.

 

My point here is to illustrate what i ment when i stated that i wanted a "study piece". Something i could hold in hand an have a good look at. As you all probably know, looking at pictures and looking at something in your hand is a rather diffrent experience. The only nihonto i get to see in person are the ones in museums on holyday, or if i get some myself, which is hard on my budget (but hey, got one :).  

 

I think learning to ask the right questions is great, and a good pointer forward, but some recommendations for some good books or videoes on the subject would help
The internett is filled with info, but it is more bad info than good if you dont know where to look, in my experience.
I know some about modern made swords, but not that mutch about antique nihonto. But what i have learned as far, is that this well is realy deep, and there are probably several cave structures under it

 

So what (other than here of course :)) are good sources for nihonto basic knowlege? Any good books for example?  

 

Jone 

[GeorgeLuucas]

If you don’t have it, “the connoisseurs guide to Japanese swords” is a great place to start. I’ve heard people say, that the first ~$1000 dollars you spend on Nihonto, should be on books, and I think that’s great advise. 

 

Keep in mind that this forum hosts Nihonto enthusiasts that have the highest of standards. Many of whom have been studying and collecting for decades. That’s what makes this place such a wealth of knowledge.
 

It’s easy to forget that most people have to deal with vastly different incomes, legislation, and availability outside of our own respective locations. I’m not familiar with the ways of Norway, but it sounds like your options are limited. Hopefully there’s some other members here from your country that can help out.  
 

Point being, don’t be discouraged! The hobby requires patience, and everyone starts somewhere - and your sword is real

 

Best of luck,

-Sam 

[Karasunoir]

I have looked at that book before, will probably get it now. Thanks for the recommendation! 
I know most people here are very passionate and enthustiastic, witch is great  I hope i did not apear salty

 

Thanks! Im not discuraged at all, looking forward to learning more  

[Baba Yaga]

1 hour ago, GeorgeLuucas said:

II’ve heard people say, that the first ~$1000 dollars you spend on Nihonto, should be on books, and I think that’s great advise. 

 

 

Actually the best way to learn is like Jacques said, a club, or with someone who has swords and guide you. Try this https://www.Japanese...ndex.com/nihonto.htm

This keyboard learning will only get you so far. 

[Alex A]

For a first blade its ok.

 

Wouldn't be surprised if turned out to be something from the likes of Fujishima.

 

A gimei blade is just a mumei blade wanting to be loved, lol

[GeorgeLuucas]

39 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

 

Actually the best way to learn is like Jacques said, a club, or with someone who has swords and guide you. Try this https://www.Japanese...ndex.com/nihonto.htm

This keyboard learning will only get you so far. 

I agree wholeheartedly. I hope my prior comment didn’t imply any disagreement with that idea or Jacques. And that’s a great link with tons of great resources and info  

 

I learned more in a weekend at the SF sword show than I did with a year in my books. There’s no substitution for a knowledgable guide with good swords, and I hope to learn more that way going forward 
 

Cheers,

-Sam 

[Baba Yaga]

2 hours ago, GeorgeLuucas said:

I agree wholeheartedly. I hope my prior comment didn’t imply any disagreement with that idea or Jacques. And that’s a great link with tons of great resources and info  

 

I learned more in a weekend at the SF sword show than I did with a year in my books. There’s no substitution for a knowledgable guide with good swords, and I hope to learn more that way going forward 
 

Cheers,

-Sam 

 

You're doing it right. Not everyone has the opportunities and able to take advantage of those opportunities. I don't think I would of gotten into Nihonto if not for the best geographic in the U.S.  Not everyone gets to live down the road from a couple Togishi and several collectors.  

[Jussi Ekholm]

Welcome to the forum Jone. I think we have few Norwegian members in here. The problem is similar in all Nordic countries, geographically quite large countries with sparse population. So it can be difficult to get together with local collectors. For us here in the north I will always recommend NBTHK Scandinavian branch: https://nbthkebscandinavia.wordpress.com/ if you are able to get to a meeting you'll meet fine folk and see nice items in the meetings. And they most likely know Nordic collectors the best in overall so they might know people around your area too.

[Karasunoir]

Thanks!

Cool, nice to know there are some out here

 

The latest post from the scandinavian brach was in april 2021, are they still active? 

[ribendao]

I also have a wakizashi with the same signature that I suspect is gimei. 
I bought it for the blade and not the signature if you know what I mean. 

Figured you would like to see it.

 

[Benjamin]

Hello all,

 

Forgive my opinion, I'm a totally beginner as Jone, but I wanted to say : don't be to rude to beginner purchasing gimei nihonto.

 

First of all, a gimei blade is still a nihonto (if I understood correctely), it's still a piece of Japan history forged handly by a craftsman, hold for defense, cultural, social and mystical purpose. It is still, at it level, a desirable object.

And, more pragmatically, valuating a gimei sword automatically increase value of better pieces. It serve all the nihonto world, even collectors and sellers of fine pics. The value of an art object is in proportion with the number of peoples wanting to own it. More people interested is more value for each blade.

But obviously, it must be presented as it is really.

 

Moreover the first steps in this world is very difficult : the large amount of knowledge needed is intimidating, the prices of item is high, even for for a basic one. And as said, out of Japan and USA, and a few capital city, there is very few opportunity to look at one blade (and I don't say hundreds of blades).

In my first step, I would not invest in a 30K € item as first purchase even if I own the money. Except very rare opportunity of specific item. I would not feel legitimate to appreciate it, and I would fear being in a transitory fad. And learning without even handling and taking care of a blade can be boring on month (years? decades?) of studying.

I've bought a maybe gimei wakizashi but I'm still happy of it and observe it frequently with pleasure, that's my first step. And one day I intend to appreciate a real fine sword with the taste I don't have already.

 

Finally it is advised to go from the bottom to the top. So not acquiring a top sword before even desirating it.

 

IMO enhancing all types of Nihonto and encouraging all types of learning necessarly serves everyone, preventing to close the "discipline" in on itself in some sort of elitist world.

 

And forgive also my english if there is mistakes.

 

Benjamin

 

 

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

Yes the Scandinavian branch is active with multiple meetings per year. Unfortunately like with many groups in this hobby keeping public up to date with activity is bit lacking The last meeting was held on 30.9.

[Alex A]

9 hours ago, ribendao said:

I also have a wakizashi with the same signature that I suspect is gimei. 
I bought it for the blade and not the signature if you know what I mean. 

Figured you would like to see it.

 

 

 

Looking at your blade, the Kanji appears unusually large

 

Saying that though, i used to own an Hizen blade where the Kanji was unusually large, as noticed by an Hizen expert and i agreed.

 

Still, had NBTHK Hozen.

[Karasunoir]

ribendao - Cool it a bit diffrent from mine, did swordsmiths usualy try make the sinature on the nakago as similar as possible, or is there variations?  

Jussi Ekholm - Nice to know! Would be cool to join, membership fee is large, but probably worth it