wakizashi from Kunisada ?

Benjamin · October 29, 2023

Hello all,

I'm a beginner in study of nihonto and decided to buy my first wakizashi from a non professionnal seller. I know it's risky but the price seemed pretty fair and there was a NTHK kanteisho.

The seller said he bought it few years ago at Nihonto Australia, that seemed to be a good reference.

In other way I'm not sure he really took good care of it, there is a little split on the shirasaya on blade side (he didn't hide it in the announcement). I have also a doubt about the habaki because it doesn't fit well on the blade (jangle a bit).

That would be from Izumi no Kami Kunisada, from the third generation if the translation I have is correct but I read this post that say third and fourth generation didn't exist :

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/4897-izumi-no-kami-kunisadawhich-one/#comment-44293

And I read this interesting article https://www.nihontoc...mi_Kunisada_mei.html about first and second generation but didn't really recognized their style of mei on that sword.

So here my questions : is it a genuine nihonto ? If yes, is it gimei ? And at any rate what could you say on this sword ? (era, quality, appraisal ?) Is it worth a polishing ? New shirasaya ?

Here are caracteristic and pics :

Nagasa : 53.6 cm

Sori : 1 cm

Kissaki : 3 cm

Saki kazane : 2 cm

Saki haba : 0.4 cm

Moto kazane : 2.8 cm

Moto haba : 0.6 cm

Nakago : 14.6 cm

Thanks for all.

Benjamin

Benjamin · October 29, 2023

Here the other side of the token

Jussi Ekholm · October 29, 2023

The paper seems to be JTK instead of NTHK. Unfortunately I wouldn't put much faith in JTK papers. I am not that well versed in Edo period smiths but 2nd gen Kunisada became Inoue Shinkai, and I am not aware of 3rd gen Kunisada.

The sword itself seems to be in quite nice shape. I would be cautious of the signature and would not invest money into the sword and would try to enjoy it as it is.

Geraint · October 29, 2023

Dear Benjamin.

You might see here for information regarding the many different oshigata available. https://www.shibuiswords.com/papers1.htm

All the best.

Rivkin · October 29, 2023

What you have is Osaka wakizashi (Osaka yakidashi attests to it) from about 1660 of rather good quality with a signature that begs many questions. I am not at all well versed with shinto ones, but I would suspect the work of upper tier but relatively unknown Osaka smiths was forcibly rebranded...

Benjamin · October 29, 2023

I greatly appreciate all your comment. Thank you for that usefull link. I'll save it.

I'll be more suspicious on token.. more to study... great!!

SteveM · October 30, 2023

Inoue Shinkai did have a son who was a swordsmith, and funnily enough there was a sword by this smith posted just a few days ago. It is an unusual coincidence because Shinkai's son didn't make very many swords.

But, I agree with the posters above, namely: the papers from this group are not very authoritative, and, a sword with the inscription Izumi No Kami Kunisada has to be scrutinized very carefully. I don't think Shinkai's son ever signed this way.

And also, regardless of the signature it is a decent, typical, wakizashi from the mid-to-late 1600s, possibly later. I just have some doubts about the signature/attribution. An authentic Kunisada (1st OR 2nd generation) would be worth a fair amount of money if it had NBTHK authentication papers.

Baba Yaga · October 30, 2023

It appears i'm always reading the same thing, Don't know anything about it, but I didn't pay much.

You have "something". Don't know what it is, or what it isn't. Doesn't matter how good the photos are. it needs to be looked at in - hand.

I don't believe the Mei is correct for the sword in Koto days. Looks Shinto but???

Most collectors leave Gimei intact and pass it down the road.. I'm sure that sword has been around the block a few times.

If proven Gimei you can always remove and submit for papers as it's a nice sword, or just keep it intact.

Benjamin · October 30, 2023

Very interesting, so there is a third generation.

Is it possible that Inoue Dan'emon forged this blade under the authority of his grandfather (or father when he was still signing Izumi no Kami Kunisada) and signed as daimei for his father or grandfather? here is what i'm thinking :

Inoue Dan'emon necessarly learned smithing in the family workshop before having his own mei, it is said Kunisada had an eye disease in the end of is life but forged until near his death in 1652, and his son (Shinkai Kunisada) forged lately under the name of his father.

The mei on my blade doesn't seem to imitate the first or second generation mei, it frankly sign Izumi no Kami Kunisada with it own kanji (I compared the kuni kanji for example that drive a vertical ligne in my sword, whereas it's more wavy on original mei). Imitation would be more linked with the original with small mistakes (or the copier never saw what he was copying).

The JTK appraiser is also a knowned polisher and is based in Osaka, so here is an Osaka appraiser and polisher judging an Osaka style sword with the name of one of the most famous Osaka smith... and would fail... I hardly figure, or it would ruin JTK reputation (but maybe..)

And this sword, that is really nice, seem to me to match the kunisada family caracteristic with the Osaka yakidoshi (thanks Kirill for the term I didn't know), this wide hamon in notare, ko-nie-deki and wide nioiguchi, kaeri boshi. If it's Gimei, it would be Gimei from the smithing process until the mei.

My automatic generated traduction of the token speak about "Dan'emon, second son of Inoue" that became "samurai of the domain obi in Hyuga" after having forged a small amount of blade until there, but I'm not sure if it's correct, is there someone here to translate the token ?

Do not hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong, I'm learning and... I'm trying hard there.

Thank you very much all of you for your responses.

Benjamin

SteveM · October 31, 2023

There is some debate about Inoue Shinkai's son, and whether Kihō (aka Yoshitada, aka Dan'emon - spelled alternatively either 弾右衛門 or 団右衛門) is the first son or second son, or maybe he's the second but he's the first from another mother, etc.. Anyway, the point is there is a little bit of confusion as to Kihō's position. He was born too late to have studied under his grandfather. I wish there were an authenticated blade of his signed with Izumi-no-kami Kunisada, but I haven't found one yet.

Franco D · October 31, 2023

On 10/29/2023 at 5:00 PM, Jussi Ekholm said:

I am not that well versed in Edo period smiths but 2nd gen Kunisada became Inoue Shinkai, and I am not aware of 3rd gen Kunisada.

FYI,

Listed in addition to the the first two generations of KUNISADA in Sho-shin's Index of Swordsmiths is the following on page numbered 22 at the top;

Quote

KUNISADA 国貞 3rd GEN-ROKU 1688 SETTSU KUN 942 JO-SAKU 500 f SHINKAI

Regards,

Baba Yaga · October 31, 2023

18 hours ago, Benjamin said:

Inoue Dan'emon necessarly learned smithing in the family workshop before having his own mei, it is said Kunisada had an eye disease in the end of is life but forged until near his death in 1652, and his son (Shinkai Kunisada) forged lately under the name of his father.

The JTK appraiser is also a knowned polisher and is based in Osaka, so here is an Osaka appraiser and polisher judging an Osaka style sword with the name of one of the most famous Osaka smith... and would fail... I hardly figure, or it would ruin JTK reputation (but maybe..)

Benjamin

They all had bad eyes after looking at glowing ambers all day with no eye protection. They all must of been deaf after listening all day to pounding metal with no hearing protection.

JTK reputation? As said, they don't have one unless you just like what they have to say and it happens to benefit a story line,.

Really nice? It's really nice for a 1st sword and in your own words, you didn't pay much. This is all subject on what you know and how big your wallet is. These swords get around Japan, USA and the UK a lot, Unless the sword is a back of the closet find assume others seen it.

What this sword has given is the opportunity to learn. that's a good thing.