Outright fake or "island" sword?

[John C]

On Shopgoodwill.com and currently at 403 dollars.

My vote is fake - but at least it is stamped.

https://shopgoodwill.com/item/181823770

 

John C.

[Kiipu]

Kosher it is.

@BANGBANGSAN

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Fake Fake Fake

[lonely panet]

all island swords are fake in my opinion

[Bruce Pennington]

It's one of those made in China during the war, unless the faker industry has decided to fake the Emergency stamp.  I supose that could happen, but I can't see why they would, nor could I see them sophisticated enough to learn about the stamp and then fake it.  It is poorly struck, but seems accurate.

 

Here's how it should look

 

But I've seen poor ones too

[Mark S.]

That transition from habaki to blade makes me… 

[Bruce Pennington]

Yes, these are always shocking to our refined sensibilities! Ha!  One of these days, someone will come up with some firm documentation/evidence about them.  

 

We know that in the last year of the war, Allied bombing had decimated mainland Japan's sword industry.  They had attempted to move heavy machinery over to occupied territory (I want to say Jensen Arsenal, working from memory) but never got full production re-established.  Local producers, therefore were the only source for many overseas forces.  A 1944 regulation change drastically reduced mil-spec requirements, and in the words of the world famous Nick Komiya, the reg said "If it shoots or stabs, make it."

[BANGBANGSAN]

This is a military sword produced in China during the later stages of World War II, intended for use by puppet government officials.

 The character "應" mark should correspond to 應需(as needed)rather than 應急(emergency). Some of these swords were given as gifts to U.S. deployed military staff and observers..

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Here is our dedicated thread to this topic:

@BANGBANGSAN @Kiipu

 

I've been trying to find the original source for calling this stamp "Emergency".  I thought it was Fuller, but couldn't find it.  Same for Dawson.  It's not cited in the thread above either.  Anyone know the origins of the term?

 

Next question Trystan - from a non-Japanese speaker, I see the kanji in both "As Needed" and "Emergency" that you posted above.  Why would you chose one over the other?

[BANGBANGSAN]

32 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Here is our dedicated thread to this topic:

@BANGBANGSAN

 

Next question Trystan - from a non-Japanese speaker, I see the kanji in both "As Needed" and "Emergency" that you posted above.  Why would you chose one over the other?

Japanese swords often have inscriptions like 應XXX需" or 應需XXX (As the needs of/"as required by someone) as part of their sword inscriptions.

 

應小林氏需-As the needs of the Kobayashi family

 

應鈴木照雲師需- As the request of Master Suzuki Shouun

 

 

應需 畑俊六閣下- As required by His Excellency Shunroku Hata (Field Marshal)

應需 畑俊六閣下- As required by His Excellency Shunroku Hata (Field Marshal)

[BANGBANGSAN]

39 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

 

 

I've been trying to find the original source for calling this stamp "Emergency".  I thought it was Fuller, but couldn't find it.  Same for Dawson.  It's not cited in the thread above either.  Anyone know the origins of the term?

 

 

 It should be "Edokko (江戶子)" who proposed it in this thread. The Kanji 應 is an older style of the Kanji 応, which is most likely a shortened form of 応急 meaning "emergency," similar to those emergency T-99 rifles marked with 応.

https://www.gunboard...356639/#post-2950116

 

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

It should be "Edokko (江戶子)" who proposed it in this thread

Ok, so we have no official source for the stamp then.  

 

I see what you're saying about the "as required/requested" use of the kanji.  My On-the-other-hand thought is that I don't see why the kanji couldn't be used for both expressions.  In a mei, it is "as required" but on the blade in a circle, it's 'emergency'.  NA, and HO, and KO, etc are kanji that mean something in a sentence, but as inspector stamps they mean something else.

 

I'm no one to say either way, but logically speaking, the "emergency" term makes more sense to me in a circle on a blade.  Maybe some day we'll uncover a regulation or document.

[BANGBANGSAN]

16 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Ok, so we have no official source for the stamp then.  

 

I see what you're saying about the "as required/requested" use of the kanji.  My On-the-other-hand thought is that I don't see why the kanji couldn't be used for both expressions.  In a mei, it is "as required" but on the blade in a circle, it's 'emergency'.  NA, and HO, and KO, etc are kanji that mean something in a sentence, but as inspector stamps they mean something else.

 

I'm no one to say either way, but logically speaking, the "emergency" term makes more sense to me in a circle on a blade.  Maybe some day we'll uncover a regulation or document.

As per my observations, most of these Chinese-made Gunto swords didn't bear 應 marks, especially in the case of the lowest quality, simplified versions that have an 'emergency' appearance.

[vajo]

That sword is one of these handmade wartime "fake" swords from mainland china. I surely doubt that these are imitations of typ98 swords. They are so crude and ugly they must be authentic dressed the chinese puppet troops in service of Japan. We could not call all fake what is shaped like a Japanese sword that didn't come from Japan. Sometimes it is different. If someone buys it thinking its genuine Japanese its not my problem. There are books or 5 Minutes in Google to find the truth. But maybe someone will collect these "trash" swords? I dunno.

 

Is this a fake Volkswagen?

 

No it's Volkswagen made in Brasil 1970

[Bruce Pennington]

27 minutes ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

most of these Chinese-made Gunto swords didn't bear 應 marks,

Which certainly adds to the mystery.  Who was using that stamp, and why?

 

15 minutes ago, vajo said:

We could not call all fake what is shaped like a Japanese sword that didn't come from Japan. Sometimes it is different.

Exactly.  I love the VW example! Ha!

[vajo]

If someone shows me a Longquan Sword Catalogue or something else with exactly that kind of swords after 1945  i will move from my opinion.

 

Btw. Typ95 NCO swords where sold 20 years ago how much? 80 Dollars or 200 Dollar? And now 1.000 Dollar. Jesus, if someone told me buy NCO swords they will be an investment in some years 

[vajo]

On 10/27/2023 at 3:37 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

...the faker industry has decided to fake the Emergency stamp.  

 

 

The faker fakes fake. People are stupid but this would be really strange.

[John C]

45 minutes ago, vajo said:

If someone buys it thinking its genuine Japanese its not my problem.

...someone is going to. It's now up to 451 dollars!

 

John C.

[vajo]

I'm not

[John C]

Ended up selling for 903 dollars.

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

1 hour ago, John C said:

903 dollars.

Dang!  There's full-on Japanese officer swords that sell for less!  However, the emergency swords have their own place in the war's history, so they deserve a place in a collection here and there.

[John C]

Apparently 900 bucks was too rich for someone. It's back on the auction block. Currently at 100 bucks.

https://shopgoodwill.com/item/183415371

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

Can someone back out a sale after the hammer?

[Bugyotsuji]

8 minutes ago, Bruce Pennington said:

Can someone back out a sale after the hammer?

In theory no, but it depends partly on the country, and many auction houses have ways and means pressure valves.