Papers and value… views on what a paper is worth to you.

[Jon]

I was thinking around the subject of papers, specifying the most recognised papers and how much value they add to a blade…now we all know a Hozon blade will not be as valuable as a TOKUBETSU HOZON, but what I’m thinking is if you had the same blade at the hozon level, one with papers one without what would be the market difference..or basically how much more would you pay for a specific blade if it had papers that matched its quality vs a clone of that specific blade that did not have papers so:

 

1) two blades exactly the same in every respect ( clones) one with Hozen papers one without…how much more (as a percentage)  would you pay for the one with hozon papers. Or as an example if you payed £2000 for a blade with hozen papes how much would you pay for the same blade without papers.

2) same question with Tokubetsu Hozon

3)same question with juyo token

4) same question with Tokubetsu Juyo token

5) same question with SHINTEISHO papers

6) same question with KANTEISHO papers

7) same question with YUSHUTO papers

 

Finally are there any papers that you would think don’t add any value, clearly this is all a bit personal opinion, but that’s part of the fun.

[BIG]

I think Hozon clear the frontiers. The admin of our Nihonto Club said: „ You do not need higher papers, Hozon is enough..

Recently checked the money sales offers for a famous shin-shinto smith, surely every sword is a lone star..

 

H 2,000,000 yen

TH 3,000,000 yen

J 6,500,000 to 8,000,000 yen

 

Best

[Jussi Ekholm]

I think the question might possibly have bit of a flaw within it. As item quality often correlates with the papers it has. This is not always true and you can find very good Hozon & Tokubetsu Hozon swords but it is very difficult to find bad Jūyō sword and pretty much impossible to find a bad Tokubetsu Jūyō.

 

For very high quality items you can pretty much ask what you want, as there won't be that much competition. I don't have that much knowledge about prices at super high level as they are often private and for asking only. However as I am bit obsessive about keeping sword records I remember 2 times when the sword has been listed initially as Jūyō and then it has passed the Tokubetsu Jūyō shinsa and listing was upgraded. Funnily enough they were with different Japanese dealers but on both times the price increase was exactly 2X, 10M -> 20M and 14M -> 28M. It kind of shows what kind of prestige dealers and market show towards Tokubetsu Jūyō, on case number 1 nothing else changed but on the case number 2 the smith was actually changed for a lot earlier one, and this was signed very long tachi!

 

For lower level upgrade steps in papers the difference can be from 0 to very small. I have recorded multiple cases where the dealer has upgraded the sword from Hozon to Tokubetsu Hozon without any change in price, and some with small change in price. For Tokubetsu Hozon to Jūyō there have been some changes in prices but actually quite small ones. Now one has to consider that Tokubetsu Hozon swords with potential to pass Jūyō are high quality items to begin with and dealers wont sell them for cheap prices.

 

I might be super strict but NBTHK attribution papers would be only ones I count having market value. Personally I wouldn't put any market value to other papers NTHK, NHTK-NPO, JASMK, JTK, ETC. For me they might be something nice to have but I don't see financial value to them. Now authentic sayagaki from the likes of Tanobe, Kanzan, Kunzan or Hon'ami lineage would be totally opposite. For example I would gladly have a sword without any papers but Tanobe-sensei sayagaki. Of course the optimal package for me would be NBTHK papers + Tanobe or Kunzan or Kanzan sayagaki.

 

Now as I have love for peculiar old items that high level collectors mostly wont chase, I feel that if I will find an item that I would have strong desire I wouldn't stress about papers etc.

[Alex A]

TH don't have the sparkle it used to have.

 

Looking over Aoi,s waks a few weeks back, think over 80% were TH.  Some swords i wonder why.

 

Many signed swords don't need papers at all as they kind of obvious they are legit. Mino Kanewhatevers etc

 

Personally, only buy swords with papers because when it comes to sell the majority wont buy swords without papers. I am but an humble bottom feeder though.

 

Agree with BIG, Hozen enough. Should back up what you already think. Cant comment on Juyo as have no real interest.

 

They add value, obviously.  As an example. 

 

Tadayoshi katana with Hozen .....................................£8000

 

Same without, whos brave enough and wants the hassle of shinsa?, shipping?, not many............................£half price, if your lucky.

 

Without papers, think the online shopping would become high risk very fast, for many.

 

 

 

 

 

[David Flynn]

Are you talking about polished blades only?  If so, if one is selling a polished sword with out papers, it would sound alarm bells.  If you're talking about swords found as is, then it's up to the potential buyer to ascertain as to whether everything is right.  As a rule of thumb, I believe a  genuine sig sword in as found condition is less than half the price of  the same smith, polished and papered.

[waljamada]

Even in situations where NBTHK (or NTHK) papers don't "increase the value" they at minimum help get fair market value when time to sell.  They make blades easier to sell as buyers like authentication on what they are buying and it adds security.  Same goes in most collectibles markets of such things.  So essentially having papers even when they may not make increase value in some cases they still help lock in a fair market value that the same blade with no papers may not achieve.  

 

For one example, in situations like heavily forged signatures/smiths etc...the papers increase value.  Overall papers are nearly always beneficial.  

 

It is possible to get katana hozon blades between the 1-2k ranges and hozon you'd be lucky for a full size katana in the 3k range.  Juyo can easily be 5 digits...these prices are all on the low ends so that alone says quite a bit.

[AlexiG]

Hi Jonathan,

 

this is a complex question with lots of possible answers. Fundamentally it depends on the quality, the smith, the rare/desirable factor. TH for some schools sell at juyo prices for other schools. Peter and Jussi's answers give you some direct comparisons. Here are few more data points:

 

To keep it apples to apples, comparisons is for the same school or smith. 

Hosho school TH recently sold for 2,650,000 yen in the same week a Juyo Hosho school blade sold for 6,500,000yen in the same store. The juyo blade was less tired/higher quality so > 2x the price.

 

I am following 4 blades from Naotane (student of Suishinshi Masahide). TH at 3,500,000 yen; TH at 3, 200, 000yen; Juyo at 8,000,000 yen; Juyo at 6,500,000 yen. 

 

On a personal note, I like to pay for the sword not for the papers, if I can. Beyond Hozon, (as Peter said above) you are paying for the opinion of experts that is a very desirable/special sword (helps when you want to sell it).  I chase specific schools and smiths and value having a validated signature more than the level of the papers, assuming the sword "speaks" to me.

I see many Juyo blades that I really do not care for and some I cannot stop drooling over  Recently I saw a signed, nearly ubu, kamakura, blade with TH papers (likely never submitted for Juyo) that the price was hidden (likely >8 000 000 yen). The sayagaki suggested Heian, but I have no reference for bizen smith with that name from Heian so I assume it is Kamakura, just to be conservative.

古備前 銘 行真 生茎太刀 特別保存刀剣 | 日本刀販売の両国 永楽堂 (eirakudo.shop)

I wish we all had blades like that (signed, old, mostly unaltered) in our collections

 

Happy collecting,

Alexi