A Tsuba with Ryu design - Kinai school, Signed - Edo period. For your comment and appreciation

[Mario Tod]

Hello everyone.

I've done some very rudimentary research on this piece as I am still new to the field. Would anyone be able to pin down a slightly more accurate appraisal?

 

Signed: Echizen ju Kinai Date: 18th century

Mei: Echizen Ju Kinai

 

A description very similar piece., . The design of RYU, a stylised dragon, is depicted, the head to tail around the SEPPA DAI, shown flying across the clouds and holding a flaming TAMA, a Japanese jewel. TECHNIQUE Pierced in YO SUKASHI, positive silhouette, with KEBORI light hairline incised surface details, which would indicate his style as well, the eyes of the dragon inlaid in gold. SIGNATURE / SCHOOL 越前住記内作 ECHIZEN JU KINAI SAKU KINAI school. PERIOD / ORIGIN Middle EDO period. 18th century. Japan. To see the body of a dragon in its entirety was thought to expose oneself to certain death, the punishment for looking upon too much divinity: the eating off the tree of knowledge. This idea is also said to be the reason why formerly the Japanese emperor, who through his forbears was said to be descended from a dragon, was always hidden by a bamboo curtain from those he received in audience.

 

 

Possibly a branch of the Miōchin (Group IV), this family was founded by Ishikawa Kinai, who moved from Kiōto to Echizen province and died in 1680. The succeeding masters, however, bore the surname of Takahashi. All sign only Kinai, with differences in the characters used and in the manner of writing them.

The Kinai made guards only, of hard and well forged iron usually coated with the black magnetic oxide. They confined themselves to pierced relief showing extraordinary cleanness both of design and execution. Any considerable heightening of gold is found as a rule only in later work. Dragons in the round appear first in guards by the third master, fishes, birds, etc., in those of the fifth; while designs of autumn flowers and the like come still later.

 

Thanks very much everyone.

 

 

 

[ROKUJURO]

Mario,

my old eyes don't see ECHIZEN KINAI, but probably something like YAMASHIRO KUNI.... Have you got better photos of the MEI?

[mecox]

Mario,  this is not Kinai but very similar style and design.  Omote mei:  Yamashiro Kuni &  Nishijin Ju.    Ura mei:  Umetada (the tsubako)

[mecox]

It is good to see you are interested in Echizen Kinai school which has an interesting history.   There is a summary and updated in NMB Downloads:

 

[Mario Tod]

Thank you very much for your reply Jean.

Here are some better photographs. Thank you for your interpretation.

[Mario Tod]

10 minutes ago, mecox said:

Mario,  this is not Kinai but very similar style and design.  Omote mei:  Yamashiro Kuni &  Nishijin Ju.    Ura mei:  Umetada (the tsubako)

Thank you Mal.

The Kinai document is absolutely fantastic. So great to have a positive identification. I even found another piece by the same two men.

Would you have an idea of a date for my piece?

 

 

 

[Mario Tod]

I see dates in your text. Let me read that first.

[Spartancrest]

Please note the signature on this Dragon tsuba by Yamashiro Kuni Nishijin ju Umetada

    

https://www.ricecrac...9_tsuba_umetada.html

 

 

However Kinai did do the same pattern - http://nihonto.us/KINAI DM105.htm

http://nihonto.us/dmtsuba last lot 002.JPG

 

and they still make copies for Iaido https://www.yamatobu...ucts/kinai-ryu-tsuba

 

Kinai one from NMB sale https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/35349-tsuba-for-sale-higo-kinai-iron/

 

 

[Mario Tod]

40 minutes ago, mecox said:

It is good to see you are interested in Echizen Kinai school which has an interesting history.   There is a summary and updated in NMB Downloads:

 

Is this the Man ?

 

 

Yoshinobu Submitted by kazarena on Mon, 2007-05-14 20:13

吉信

初代

[Help]

△  寛永︱ 山城

Yoshinobu (1st gen)

ID	YOS656
Province	Yamashiro
Era	Kanei (1624-1644)
Active Period	1624-1644
Teacher	Myoju
Lineage	Image / Interactive

 

Source	Rating	Reference/Page
Hawley	90	YOS656
Toko Taikan	¥4.5M	739

Signatures:

山城國住埋忠吉信

yamashiro kuni ju umetada yoshinobu

山城國西陣住埋忠吉信

yamashiro kuni nishijin ju umetada yoshinobu

 

Biography and lineage

Held Yamato Daijō and Yamato no Kami titles.

Workmanship and style

Fine horimono.

 

 

 

https://nihontoclub.com/smiths/YOS656

40 minutes ago, mecox said:

 

 

[Mario Tod]

14 minutes ago, Spartancrest said:

Please note the signature on this Dragon tsuba by Yamashiro Kuni Nishijin ju Umetada

    

https://www.ricecrac...9_tsuba_umetada.html

 

 

However Kinai did do the same pattern - http://nihonto.us/KINAI DM105.htm

http://nihonto.us/dmtsuba last lot 002.JPG

 

and they still make copies for Iaido https://www.yamatobu...ucts/kinai-ryu-tsuba

 

Kinai one from NMB sale https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/35349-tsuba-for-sale-higo-kinai-iron/

 

 

 

Thank you Dale and Malcolm. I'm pretty blown away by the quantity and quality of information here. Definitely very satisfied to know soooo much more about my piece. So we will go early Edo right?

[Spartancrest]

Another to add  - https://www.lot-art....ba-03.10.20-catawiki  - SIGNATURE / SCHOOL 越前住記内作 ECHIZEN JU KINAI SAKU KINAI school. PERIOD / ORIGIN Middle EDO period. 18th century.

There must have been plenty of demand because they sure made a few! And more than one school involved.  

[Brian]

Mid to late Edo.

[Mario Tod]

5 minutes ago, Brian said:

Mid to late Edo.

 

Hello Brian and others

Am I interpreting things correctly that this is the Smith?

[Brian]

You're looking at smiths. Not the same guys who made tsuba.
There isn't an easy catalog of tsuba makers, they were far more prolific and often mass produced.

Often the signatures were more schools or workshops.

[Mario Tod]

1 hour ago, Brian said:

You're looking at smiths. Not the same guys who made tsuba.
There isn't an easy catalog of tsuba makers, they were far more prolific and often mass produced.

Often the signatures were more schools or workshops.

Aaaaaah, very interesting. Thank you so much Brian🙏🙏

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Mario

 

In my view this is pretty late and pretty poor work. Not of a quality I'd recommend worth collecting or spending money on. 

 

A couple of easy pointers.

 

We'd typically expect things like eye and teeth to be highlighted in gold or silver, either solid or gilt/silvered. In this case they're in brass. This, even though they will tarnish quickly, suggests to me that gilding was not planned because gilding using mercury is virtually impossible to accomplish well on brass. They can be kept shiny and bright just long enough to fool the unweary tourist perhaps.

 

Surface details are inevitably either finely engraved/chiselled or carved. In this case, though, the scale pattern covering the dragon's body appear to have been simply punched, not even engraved, by using a cup shaped U punch. From a production point of view this is absolutely the easiest, quickest and least skilled method of suggesting a scale-like pattern.

 

It might be a worthwhile exercise to compile as many such pierced and carved iron dragon tsuba as you can and to try to evaluate and order the examples in terms of quality to better recognise the general differences in quality. I believe we all recognise quality when in comparison whereas assessing a singular object is sometimes trickier.   

 

And lastly, as is often said with blades, the workmanship proves the signature, and not the other way round. 

 

If you really want to get into Kinai I reckon you'll be needing a copy of  "Echizen Kinai Tsuba by Tsuruoka", Grey Doffin, a well respected and trusted dealer sometimes active on the NMB has a copy here.

 

[Spartancrest]

10 hours ago, Ford Hallam said:

Surface details are inevitably either finely engraved/chiselled or carved. In this case, though, the scale pattern covering the dragon's body appear to have been simply punched, not even engraved, by using a cup shaped U punch. From a production point of view this is absolutely the easiest, quickest and least skilled method of suggesting a scale-like pattern.

I think Fords analysis is sound, compare if you will this ebay piece - I am pretty sure it is a casting  https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/175986740857 The only likely time this one saw a punch was in the original casting mould

  There is a still a gulf between this one and Mario's original post and it only goes to prove that there is a sliding scale of quality "out there". 

Like most objects the higher up the scale - the higher the price you will need to cope with.  I think this particular example is right up there with a beer coaster. 

[Spartancrest]

Would you believe!   https://www.jauce.com/auction/l1111374851  or  https://buyee.jp/ite.../auction/l1111374851  another by Yamashiro Kuni Nishijin ju Umetada

         

 

And another https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/394649920061 They are starting to add up!  Kinai and Umetada really had a production line going!

Edited October 26, 2023 by Spartancrest
MORE LINKS

[Deez77]

Lol...they sure did, Dale. Here's one from my collection to add to the list. Signed Echizen ju Kinai.

 

 

Damon

[Spartancrest]

7 hours ago, Deez77 said:

Here's one from my collection to add to the list.

It is a nice one with the fukurin added 

[Spartancrest]

On 10/24/2023 at 8:47 PM, Mario Tod said:

research on this piece

I should check my own books more often - two more examples from the Cleveland Art Museum  https://www.clevelandart.org/art/1919.244 山城国西陳住埋忠 = Yamashiro no kuni Nishijin ni sumu Umetada Translation: Umetada who lives in Nishijin in Yamashiro province  and https://www.clevelandart.org/art/1919.510 signed: 山城國西陣住埋忠    so same signature as your example. Both these two examples from  D. Z. Norton collection originally.

[Mario Tod]

On 10/25/2023 at 12:29 AM, Ford Hallam said:

Hi Mario

 

In my view this is pretty late and pretty poor work. Not of a quality I'd recommend worth collecting or spending money on. 

 

A couple of easy pointers.

 

We'd typically expect things like eye and teeth to be highlighted in gold or silver, either solid or gilt/silvered. In this case they're in brass. This, even though they will tarnish quickly, suggests to me that gilding was not planned because gilding using mercury is virtually impossible to accomplish well on brass. They can be kept shiny and bright just long enough to fool the unweary tourist perhaps.

 

Surface details are inevitably either finely engraved/chiselled or carved. In this case, though, the scale pattern covering the dragon's body appear to have been simply punched, not even engraved, by using a cup shaped U punch. From a production point of view this is absolutely the easiest, quickest and least skilled method of suggesting a scale-like pattern.

 

It might be a worthwhile exercise to compile as many such pierced and carved iron dragon tsuba as you can and to try to evaluate and order the examples in terms of quality to better recognise the general differences in quality. I believe we all recognise quality when in comparison whereas assessing a singular object is sometimes trickier.   

 

And lastly, as is often said with blades, the workmanship proves the signature, and not the other way round. 

 

If you really want to get into Kinai I reckon you'll be needing a copy of  "Echizen Kinai Tsuba by Tsuruoka", Grey Doffin, a well respected and trusted dealer sometimes active on the NMB has a copy here.

 

 

 

Thank you so much Ford and others for your insights.

I'm glad to say I didn't pay very much for this piece, $250, The most I have ever paid for a Tsuba, and I'm not in any way disappointed by Ford's assessment.

As a novice collector it's extremely interesting to begin to educate myself as to the depth of this art form. I had no illusions that this was a masterpiece. It's amazing the way more and more examples keep coming out. The previous owner of this piece would have been fascinated by this discussion. This piece and most of the others in my collection come from a single previous collection that was assembled here in Cape Town in the 1950s. The previous collector would have been in his early 30s at the time and a novice in the subject. Lovely to now assemble this research and pair it with the pieces so that the next custodian will be able to further the research and not have to repeat it. 

Thank you everyone for your engagement and interest. I will slowly over the coming days and months share the rest of my collection for your enjoyment and scrutiny.

 

[zanilu]

Hi

 

Here are two from my collection bought in the beginning in my dragon phase. Average to low quality:

 

 

Signed Yamashiro no kuni Nishijin ju Umetada. Dimensions 70 mm x 68 mm, 5 mm thickness at mimi.

 

 

musei. Dimensions 77 mm x 77 mm, thickness at mimi 4 mm.

 

Regards

Luca