Advise on wakizashi

[tyrion67]

Hello,

I have been offered this wakizashi, with unsigned blade.
do you see any red flag on it?
the blade is approx. 37.5cm (from EDO period as advertised)
 

Thanks in advance.

[Geraint]

Dear Jo.

 

I'm not seeing any red flags but I am struggling to see any green ones!

 

It is very hard to make a judgement from these photographs and if they are all you have to go on then I would be cautious.  What you have shown us is an unsigned and apparently shortened blade.  It may be older than Edo period but that is a bit of a catch all phrase at best.  It does not seem to be in very good polish and the forging seems basic.

 

I suppose everything depends on what you want to buy and what you want to spend.  This is a genuine Japanese sword and I cannot see any fatal flaws, however there might be some when you have it in hand.  You don't mention koshirae or papers, I assume that it at least has a shirasaya.

 

For whatever it is worth if I saw this blade as is I would walk away without it.  Others may see something that I have missed.

 

Hope that helps.

 

All the best.

[tyrion67]

Hello Geraint,

 

First, thanks a lot for your feedback.

 

I'm sure it's not a remarkable or exceptional blade, I'm well aware of that.
I have a limited budget, and I wanted to find an honest and authentic blade. After that, many would say to wait and buy a better, more expensive blade.
But for the time being, this one would fit well in my budget, if indeed there were no "problems" with it.

 

I've got another photo, which I hope will help you form a clearer opinion.

Thanks in advance,
Jo
 

[2devnul]

Hi,

I'm total amatory but will share some thoughts. 

 

1. Hamon looks like decent polish, however Hada can suggest that sword was polished multiple times over the time (getting close to core).

2. Nakago looks shortened. 

3. I don't see Tsuba or other fittings very well, but I don't like the way Tsuka looks. Doesn't look like a proper Japanese one. Maybe done by someone outside of Japan, poorly if you ask me. 

4. Mumei is fine with me, you can have a lot of fun while trying to determine who (or at least which school) was the smith. 

5. No papers means lesser price when re-selling, but is it important for you personally?

6. Kozuka is missing. 

7. If you like the blade, then simply buy and enjoy!

 

Cheers!

 

 

[tyrion67]

Thanks for your feedback. I don't like very much the tsuba either.

Yes, no paper but as you say, not important for me.

 

This is additional pictures.

 

 

[2devnul]

Ok, so Tsuba is in terrible condition. I guess same will be for Fuchi/Kashira. I don't think you can restore it. Tsuka is missing Samegawa and Menuki (what is that symbol behind wrapping? Painted/sticker on wood?). Tsuka is a home made reproduction in my opinion. Habaki looks nice. 

 

Sword looks like was fitted in Frankenstein Koshirae done by whatever available. Proper Koshirae might cost you more (even just new Shirasaya) then the sword. 

 

Still, if you like it, buy it

[tyrion67]

Well, after all of this, I like it less and less (but that's the purpose of this topic ).

from a distance I could see that the tsuka wasn't in great shape, but added to the tsuba that's almost a wreck, I'm less enthusiastic. The only thing left would be the original blade (and even then)... 

 

Maybe I'll wait for a more coherent example, this one seems to me to resemble, as you say, a curious mix, with pieces found here and there, assembled around this blade...

[Rivkin]

In the first photo kissaki proportions are badly distorted, and overall it is very important to picture boshi in detail.

Assuming its sugu, this most likely would be shinto. The polish is not top notch but it does underline the hamon well so its quite useful. Mino-ish style most likely.

There is indeed not much to see in these photographs, but it appears as genuine though pretty average period blade.

[Jon]

To be honest, it very much depends what are looking for…a cheap Nihonto as a wall hanger to say you have one or the foundations of a collection that supports the development of your knowledge. Budget comes into it, but if your starting out do you want to blow a fortune I would say no.

 

If you’re starting out or a couple of years in with limited knowledge papers take on a lot of meaning:

 

1) it guarantees your investment to a degree 

2) its easy to sell on later

3) the papers provide you with a solid foundation of understanding what the blade “is” to support your studies, papers will give you a school etc this will mean your not studying the blade in a complete vacuum of knowledge ( for those who have vast knowledge papers are less important..for us mortals they are actually really quite useful). It’s easier to learn with an example in front of you instead of in a complete vacuum.

 

Next looking at cost..in the European market there is a lot of not so great blades with not so great fittings, without papers going for quite a lot of money…you can spend £800- £1200 for a blade like that…if you have a good look around the Japanese sellers/exporters you can find some pretty reasonable unsigned Tanto or wakisashi with “Hozen” papers…in Shirasaya for that money.

 

From the point of view of owning the blade, it’s better that it comes with a decent shirasaya than poorly fitting poor koshirae, that you will be paying for but don’t want.

 

I have taken the advice from the more experienced collectors and have stuck with papered blades. For now I’m focusing on the blades and not the fittings..so everything I’m getting is In Shirasaya as it’s the blades I want to study not the fittings just yet.

 

As a new collector myself  I would say..get something papered, get something with a signature that has been attributed to a smith/generation ( Jo-Saku rated smith if you can) get it in good Polish and ensure it’s in a Shirasaya..so you lovely blade is protected. When you get that home it’s will be something that can form the core of your new collection. I’m betting if you really look around you will find a blade like that for not much more than you would pay for this blade.

 

 

[tyrion67]

@Rivkin yes, you're right, seems an average blade with poor condition fitting, I would pass this one.

 

@Jonit's an interesting point of view, for a "new" collector like me.

It's true that as a beginner, we're often tempted to have "the perfect, complete piece", but with our beginner's budget.
And in the end, we end up with an unsatisfactory piece, complete of course, but with many defects, and which we'll take less pleasure in admiring.
I've experienced this temptation in other collection themes.

But concentrating on the blade alone can be a good start, along with its history, and paperwork does have its place.
I'm going to take a look at what I find in shirasaya here in Europe, but the European market, especially among private individuals, is very commonly filled with very average and very expensive blades.

The temptation to order from Japan is of course high, but customs (French for my part) are sometimes fearsome... I'll have to find out more about that.

 

Thanks for your feedback all.

[Jussi Ekholm]

What would be your approximate budget?

[Jon]

Just something I was looking at, that seems a real bargain for a Tokubetsu hozon, and as a first Nihonto an interesting study  and something that could stand up in a collection  for a while.

 

https://www.aoijapan.com/wakizashi-sagami-kami-fujiwara-hiroshigenbthk-tokubetsu-hozon-token/?_sfm_paper=特別保存刀剣&_sfm_price=100000+300000

 

It will cost about 1500euros…seems a lovely looking blade for the price. They sometimes give a bit of a discount and free shipping if you ask.

 

others may have a view.

[tyrion67]

Thanks for the link Jon.

I'm assuming it's a reputable and serious store, so I'm going to take a look...

[2devnul]

AOI (Yakuza's store ) is reliable and trustworthy. 

 

You can also have a look at:

https://www.e-sword.jp/category/wakisashi/

 

Or (low budget but also risky condition, buying on your own risk):

https://www.ebay.com/str/konnichiwatokyo

https://www.ebay.com/str/komonjo

 

Please also note that this forum has a members (and/or dealers) that can help. 

It is worth to start a topic in "want to buy" section. Described what you look for or how much money you have. 

[tyrion67]

@2devnul thanks for the links.

 

I also been offered this blade. Perhaps a cheap blade to hang on the wall, would be grateful to hear your opinions about it.

First, signature has been identified here

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/46690-help-with-translation/

Of course blade was not made by Sanjō Kokaji, but it's consistent with the little information I have on this blade, namely that it's a recreation of a "mythical blade".

It dates back to the Shin-shinto period.
blade: 48.4cm
nagasa: 38cm
sori : 3mm
maru-mune

Of course, I imagine it's not a prestigious blade, but is it really authentic and from the period it's being sold? Does it have a certain value, even if it's a "recreation" ?

Thanks in advance for your feebacks

 

[Baba Yaga]

A nice marketing term "recreation" for deception. The price is only what someone is willing to spend. 

 

[tyrion67]

14 hours ago, Baba Yaga said:

A nice marketing term "recreation" for deception. The price is only what someone is willing to spend. 

 

Thank you for your time. Is it that bad?

[2devnul]

Hi,

By "recreation" do you mean it is a Gimei? Do I understand correctly?

 

I fully agree with Baba Yaga. It always depends on buyer/seller about the price. It is also difficult to judge if it is worth buying because:

1. Pictures are never the same experience as looking at the blade personally. 

2. I've seen swords in great condition bought cheaply and rusty junk sold expensive. It all depends on demand and supply. 

3. Some collectors deny Gimei, I have nothing against them if I like the blade and price is fine (have a look on below thread about Gimei I recently bought)

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/45588-shinto-wakizashi-hojoji-sadahiro-please-comment/

4. We don't know the prices. 

 

Again, before buying I highly recommend to post in "want to buy" forum section. You might be surprised by results. 

Good luck!

[tyrion67]

1 hour ago, 2devnul said:

Hi,

By "recreation" do you mean it is a Gimei? Do I understand correctly?

 

From my very beginner point of view, yes, it seems you can call it Gimei. But this signature of a legendary blacksmith has probably not been reproduced to deceive people. At least, that's my logical point of view.

But maybe I'm completely wrong.
The story I was told was that this blade was forged in a school to recreate a legendary 10th century blade made by this famous blacksmith.
But my experience with other militaria themes has taught me not to believe every good story (or at least, to assume that they're not entirely true).

 

1 hour ago, 2devnul said:

I fully agree with Baba Yaga. It always depends on buyer/seller about the price. It is also difficult to judge if it is worth buying because:

1. Pictures are never the same experience as looking at the blade personally. 

2. I've seen swords in great condition bought cheaply and rusty junk sold expensive. It all depends on demand and supply. 

3. Some collectors deny Gimei, I have nothing against them if I like the blade and price is fine (have a look on below thread about Gimei I recently bought)

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/45588-shinto-wakizashi-hojoji-sadahiro-please-comment/

 

So far, I've got nothing against the Gimei either.
Given the blade I'm currently looking for, and my modest budget, I'm bound to make concessions, and Gimei may be one of them. If one day I'm looking for a higher-quality blade with a bigger budget, I think I'll avoid Gimei.

 

1 hour ago, 2devnul said:

4. We don't know the prices. 

 

This blade is offered to me for 500€, with fittings that I personally find very pretty (even if they seem to be obviously basic).
I'm aware that this is a very low budget, but this blade is in France, so no additional costs are to be expected.

At this price, obviously, I'm not expecting something incredible, I'd like at least a real Japanese forged blade (ideally dating from the period I've been specified), but above all I just want to avoid coming across a Chinese copy or worse.

 

1 hour ago, 2devnul said:

Again, before buying I highly recommend to post in "want to buy" forum section. You might be surprised by results. 

Good luck!

 

Yes, you're right, I will do it right now !

Thanks for your points of view.

 

[Brian]

The hadori finish is masking the actual hamon. There is no telling if the hamon is even present, or runs off the blade. There is a chance there is no hamon, which would render it worthless.
I'd be hesitant. The blade shape is also odd....you need to make sure it wasn't shortened from the front. I would have expected this to be a katana. It's a risky call.

[2devnul]

11 minutes ago, Brian said:

....you need to make sure it wasn't shortened from the front. I would have expected this to be a katana. It's a risky call.

 

Good call! Now when you pointed this out I can also see that Kissaki seems strange. Is it missing proper Yokote? 

[tyrion67]

This is a small text given to me about the signature. Be aware that this text seems to have been translated from Japanese to english to french, and now again to english, so expect lots of typos 

 

Quote

Signature analysis:
Sanjo Munechika comes from the fact that he lived in Sanjo, Kyoto. 
This legendary sword is said to have been made during the reign of Emperor Ichijo, towards the end of the 10th century.
It is written in the kuanchi'in "Ichijo-in Gowu": "Munechika made a sword called Kokachi de Sanjo, and a sword called Tsurukikimaru". This is the first time a Japanese sword has been deformed from a straight blade to a curved one. He is known as a blacksmith representative of the period when Japanese swords switched to the curved form.

It is therefore a recreation of an ancient blade that is practically mystical in the minds of the blacksmiths of the Shin Shinto period. The blade's antique masame-hada construction, thin, almost curve-free and round muné, reinforces this hypothesis.  Although today's blade is classified as a wakizashi, in Munechika's time it was considered an o-tanto.
 

 

And some others characteristics (not sure about proper spelling)

- total length : 58.5cm

- blade length : 48.4cm

- nagasa : 38.1cm

- sori : 3mm

- no kissaki

- moto haba : 28mm

- moto-kasane : 4.6mm

- mekugi : 1

- hada : masame-hada

- boshi yaki zume

- hamon : chu suguha

- boshi : yari zume

- mune - maru-mune

- period : shin shinto (1780-1868)

-forging defect(?) : shinae et old corrosion, no hagire.

 

attached are 2 additional photos

 

Thanks

[Brian]

Don't agree with most of that. This is in no way an o-tanto. It isn't made to resemble a tanto, it is clearly a wakizashi, which they didn't make at that time. If that was what the smith was going for, he would have made it a clear tanto, or probably a katana. I don't see anything to challenge what I posted.
 

[2devnul]

Hi,

 

I can't find anything about "Kokachi de Sanjo" or "Tsurukikimaru". The famous blade from Sanjo Munechika I know about is "Mikazuki Munechika".

However, this was (is!) Tachi, not O-Tanto. Well known sword, for ages (owned by Toyotomi Hideyoshi and the Tokugawa shoguns), fitting the story of Edo period blacksmith wanted to make a tribute sword. 

 

Maybe also partially true in your case, who knows. For example, it could be the sword was shortened (originally Katana) that is the reason of its odd geometry/Kissaki. 

[Matsunoki]

5 hours ago, tyrion67 said:

Is it that bad?

Yep.

The story (as it relates to this sword) is total rubbish and everything Brian said about the blade is correct. Kissaki geometry is horrible and looks heavily shortened at the wrong end. A story/sword dressed up to con someone imo.

 

[tyrion67]

thank you all gentlemen.

 

I'm delighted that you've reached a unanimous decision against the blade, so I won't have any regrets about refusing this proposal. 

 

I'm well aware that as a beginner, it's easy to become enthusiastic about a blade which, in the eyes of an expert, is a piece of rubbish.

I have to admit that, in view of the collector who offered it to me, his very fine collection by the way, and all the "precise" information he gave me, I was willing to trust him.

It seems likely that he wanted to get rid of a really strange blade that was probably encumbering him.

 

I thank you again for your messages and your knowledge, which will at least have advanced mine a little on the subject, and I'll probably be a little less of a rookie on future opportunities (although I won't hesitate to submit it to your expert eyes).

 

Jo

[Baba Yaga]

8 hours ago, tyrion67 said:

Thank you for your time. Is it that bad?

You wouldn't want to run in the jungle with fresh meat hanging out of your pockets. It's sort of like that. 

[Jon]

42 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

You wouldn't want to run in the jungle with fresh meat hanging out of your pockets. It's sort of like that. 

That’s just a bit gross..I now have an image of Lady Gaga in her meat dress running through the jungle hunted by wolves.

[Baba Yaga]

17 minutes ago, Jon said:

That’s just a bit gross..I now have an image of Lady Gaga in her meat dress running through the jungle hunted by wolves.

 Guns N Roses Welcome to the jungle. 

 

I was at a SF sword show when this young guy yells out he had $10K and wanted to buy a sword. It looked like the scene from the movie Blade when the blood starts flowing out of the fire sprinklers and all the Vampires show fang.  

[tyrion67]

1 hour ago, Baba Yaga said:

I was at a SF sword show when this young guy yells out he had $10K and wanted to buy a sword. 

 

I wish I could have been that guy (without the meat dress).