polishing question

[Yves]

I was told there were essentially 3 different types of polishing on swords:
- standard
- iai + bit of art polishing
- full art polish

Is the full art polish something to be avoided on a swords that would occassionally be used in iai? 

[John C]

Yves:

In general, polishing is very expensive - about 2,000 to 3,000 dollars (1,800 to 2,800 euros) per blade. Once polished, we go to great lengths to keep it as pristine as possible. I suspect that a sword that is going to be used for iai or any other form of martial art, would damage the integrity of the polish very quickly.

Just something to consider.

John C.

[Larason2]

Not sure where you heard this information. A standard Japanese polish for a sword depends on what it is for, but at least in Japan, pretty much every sword would get at least a sashikomi polish, which is also called a "foundation polish." It is a polish using the full sequence of polishing stones, and completed with a finishing stone like the uchigomori that leaves an opaque "mist" on an otherwise mirror finish. Sometimes swords like those meant for iai are polished in this, that's maybe what you call "iai and a bit of art polishing." To do the full art polish, you generally would also use nugui (iron oxide powder in oil with other additives), and finger stones, of which the most characteristic are the hazuya. This step is usually referred to as finish polishing. I would say for most nihonto, a full art polish in Japan with all the steps above is standard. For iai though, the standard seems to be a foundation polish only. Given this, I'm not sure what you would be referring to as the "standard" polish. Maybe that's just burnishing the whole blade, as you find on a Chinese reproduction. I don't think this is a standard anywhere in Japan, though it is the standard in China, and on any reproductions sold outside of Japan. 

 

I agree with John C that if you're going to spend the money on a full art polish, I probably wouldn't use it for Iai. Sooner or later you're going to scratch it. If you would like it to have a good quality polish and are just using it for the movements of iai, you can get a foundation polish. That will hide scratches somewhat, but look more aesthetic, and not be so expensive to correct. If you're doing any cutting, and you have a reproduction, I wouldn't get either of these, leave it in the burnished/etched state it came in, as it's probably going to get really scratched up over time. 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Who told you this?

[Yves]

It may be in the translation but the 3 of them are polished it seems but different levels. I'm talking to the smith directly, who is discussing with other craftsmen about completion. 
Something I didn't knew either was that they can use different grades of tamagahane, the better of which will give a better finish on the sword as more work is involved. 
For the fittings it seems that you have what you could call regular quality and then top quality. Seems to have to do a lot with the shaping and such of the saya and especially the lacquer they use. 

[Yves]

9 hours ago, John C said:

Yves:

In general, polishing is very expensive - about 2,000 to 3,000 dollars (1,800 to 2,800 euros) per blade. Once polished, we go to great lengths to keep it as pristine as possible. I suspect that a sword that is going to be used for iai or any other form of martial art, would damage the integrity of the polish very quickly.

Just something to consider.

John C.

Hm, the price I got for a quality polish was a lot better than that. 190k for a sword and 140k for a wakizashi or roughly 1200$ for the sword. I also got the comment that a quality polish would easily get damaged when used (in out of the saya)

[Yves]

This is the better quality.

[Yves]

this is the mid quality

[Yves]

Really high art quality polish would be indeed 2500$ or thereabout

[Baba Yaga]

Obviously your going to sell the sword after polish, or why do it at all for Iaido. Where did you get those photos from? 

[Yves]

1 hour ago, Baba Yaga said:

Obviously your going to sell the sword after polish, or why do it at all for Iaido. Where did you get those photos from? 

Because I want a sword that is still worth something. From the smith. 

[Larason2]

1200$ makes sense for a foundation polish, and $2500 for an art polish from a Japanese togishi. Finishing polishes are very time consuming to apply. In Japan, most iado practitioners have a foundation polish on their sword only. Given this, I recommend you go for that.

[Yves]

9 minutes ago, Larason2 said:

1200$ makes sense for a foundation polish, and $2500 for an art polish from a Japanese togishi. Finishing polishes are very time consuming to apply. In Japan, most iado practitioners have a foundation polish on their sword only. Given this, I recommend you go for that.

And which ones of the above would constitute a foundation polish? 

[ROKUJURO]

14 hours ago, Larason2 said:

...... in Japan, pretty much every sword would get at least a sashikomi polish, which is also called a "foundation polish." It is a polish using the full sequence of polishing stones, and completed with a finishing stone like the uchigomori that leaves an opaque "mist" on an otherwise mirror finish. .....

Carlos,

this is new to me. Where did you get that from?

The stone is UCHGUMORI. (min 2:03)

   

[Larason2]

The $1200 polish is probably the foundation polish, I would think!

 

Jean: I seem to recall reading about this on the sword forum buyers guide at least once, but can't find it at the moment. But I did read this article by Doug Blaine that supports my assertion, I think:

 

https://ejmas.com/ti...nart_blain_0203.html

 

I think you are right it is Uchigumori, I got into the bad habit of substituting the O because it is commonly misspelled online. But the two places I have bought them from (Namikawa Heibei and A Frames Tokyo) both spell it with a U as you suggest. Thanks for the correction! 

[rematron]

What I’ve gotten from reading threads in NMB is that there two types of polishes: sashikomi and hadori.  Hadori seems to be the more popular type of polish currently but both are considered art polishes (I thought) and both start with a foundation polish. Is that right? I was under the impression that both styles of polish are roughly the same price but that it can be a little more difficult to find a polisher willing to do sashikomi. Am I missing something? There are a couple of highly opinionated and heated yet very educational threads in NMB that are easy to find. All you have to do is search ‘sakshikomi versus hadori’.

[Yves]

I've also read about the sashikomi and hadori types. 
Can I assume that the higher quality polish is hadori style and the mid quality tha sashikomi? 
If I read comments correctly, the consensus seems to be that a sashikomi polish would suffice for swords also used for iai.

[rematron]

From my understanding, sashikomi does not equal “foundation polish”. It is a type of polish achieved after the foundation polish. So, once there is a foundation polish, the next step is either sashikomi polish or hadori polish.
 

Which one is “higher quality” depends  completely on who you ask. I highly recommend reading the long thread.
 

However, to answer your question, yes, I have read that a foundation polish is as far as it is advised to go for iai, because an art polish will be ruined by wear and tear. 

[Franco]

12 minutes ago, Yves said:

Can I assume that the higher quality polish is hadori style and the mid quality tha sashikomi? 

 

Suggested  reading;

 

Togishi Shigekazu Jimmy Hayashi: A Report and Interview

By Prof. Arnold Frenzel

Mr. Jimmy Hayashi is a Japanese sword polisher who lives in the United States. This article by Prof. Arnold Frenzel was originally published by the JSS/US Vol.31, 1999, pp.51-62. It is presented here with the author's permission.

 

https://www.nihontoc..._Sword_Polisher.html

 

Regards,

 

 

 

[rematron]

Here’s a good thread in NMB that displays the varying opinions of members. 

 

 

[Larason2]

The sashikomi vs. hadori debate seems bizarre to me. This is possibly because I'm a novice nihonto appreciator, but also possibly because I'm an amateur Japanese style polisher, with over 100 hours of polishing Japanese kitchen knives, reproductions, and nihonto fragments already under my belt. 

 

Sashikomi means "insert," but I was taught in the context of polishing, that it means "mist." After the sequence of stones of the foundation polish, a very fine uchigumori stone is used. When used properly, this causes the slurry to be taken up by the surface of the metal, making it look opaque (probably what sashikomi is referring to). The surface therefore is perfectly smooth, but also opaque. This is actually the standard polish not just for swords, but any Japanese hard metal with a large flat face.

 

To produce a hadori, you need to use hazuya stones. With sashikomi, all the details of the metal are visible, but usually the frosted appearance of the water quenching, which is a very superficial effect, is removed. If you apply the hazuya gently enough, you can still see the details of the metal through the sashikomi. If you overdo it, you can only see details from the side. So I guess overpolishing can be a preference, but it's not mine.

 

Takaiwa in his book starts every blade with a traditional sashikomi polish, and I'd be surprised if any polisher didn't. Sometimes adding the mist at the end with the uchigumori is a fast process, but sometimes it's not, it depends on the characteristics of the metal. I'd be dissapointed if a Japanese polisher didn't sashikomi at the end of the base polish, because without it, the details of the metal won't be fully visible. Technically using nugui or hazuya isn't necessary to appreciate the details of a blade, but I also agree it's nice to at least have a gentle frosted effect to evoque a water quenching. But that's a matter of taste I guess! Of all the polishes, hadori takes the most work, because adding white with hazuya is time consuming, and you need to start with sashikomi anyway.

 

So in the context of this discussion, it makes sense to at least get a basic sashikomi polish, which is what Takaiwa calls a foundation polish. All the extra money boils down to whether or not you want nugui or a frosted effect added to that, and how thick you want it! For a blade that's going to be used for iaido, I'd recommend not frosting it at all (because it rubs or scratches off).

 

A hadori blade should be sashikomi polished at the start, at least according to Takaiwa's method, though I'd be surprised if any Japanese polisher didn't do this.

[SteveM]

This is also very educational. 

 

[Baba Yaga]

If you haven't seen, held and shown the difference between an experts polish and "others", you're not going to understand. 

Internet keyboard Nihonto has its limitations. Those are just the facts, I didn't make them up. or is it "Makeup". 

[rematron]

This is one of many aspects of Nihonto that I look forward to seeing in hand eventually when I go to a show.  I admit that with my limitation of "internet keyboard Nihonto" my preference of sashikomi polish definitely isn't fully educated.  But there is something about the hadori polish 'tracing' around the 'water quench line' aspect of the hamon with white mist that bothers me.  The fact that the polisher chooses how that looks (sometimes even crossing the water line) seems arbitrary.  Superficial or not, I do enjoy the water quench line and don't like to see it hindered. I enjoy the blade having a uniform polish all over it and then me needing to turn it in the light in order to reveal its secrets.  I wonder if that will change. 

[Stephen]

F/I

 

[Bruce Pennington]

Got this from a sword polishers site:

 

FOUNDATION POLISH or MARTIAL ARTS POLISH (Shitajitogi)

FINISH POLISH (Shiagetogi): Some times referred to as a "touch-up", this polish is for blades that are in reasonably good shape, but need fixing up do to a low grade Showa era polish or just an old worn out looking Japanese polish.

FULL POLISH: This is the full complete traditional Japanese art polishing.

[Baba Yaga]

Use the imagination of this sword being in much better shape. This video received over 1.2M views. 

 

[ROKUJURO]

Painful to watch. Imagine he had found an authentic blade and treated it this way!