Saya Cord?

[Bruce Pennington]

Browsing through a Japanese sword sale site, Choshuya.co.jp, specifically, many of the civil koshirae have cords haning from the saya.  Can someone explain the purpose of these?

 

On another note, it makes me think of the many WWII gunto that show up with similar cords hanging from the ashi.  It is often said the cord looks like someone tied some ito cord to the gunto, like a G.I. or a later collector.  But after seeing all these civil rigs with the exact same thing, I'm starting to think this was done by the original owners.

 

Some examples, but there are many I could post:

[Grey Doffin]

Sageo. Your sword in koshirae is slid behind your obi on your left hip and the sageo goes in front of the obi and is then tied around the saya below the obi. When you draw your sword the saya stays behind.

Grey

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks, Grey, makes sense.  Can't see a purpose to having them on WWII gunto, then, unless it's a Tip-o'-the-hat to tradition.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Likely used as post war for Iai (for the Gunto).

[Stephen]

Wow they really have changed their website. 

[Bruce Pennington]

For discussion purposes, here is a link provided by one of our members to a discussion of these.  He claims the Samurai sageo were short and not used as we do in modern times.  He puts forth 5 ideas for their use, but none of them involve securing the sword to the belt.  Not taking sides, just offering it up for discussion.

 

 

Here are his 5 proposed uses:

1. A string to treat injuries
2. An emergency string in case your tsukamaki breaks
3. A rope to carry the sword on your back
4. A rope to capture an enemy
5. A way to fight in the dark

[OceanoNox]

I usually treat what he says with a pinch of salt, however, there are documents (although I conveniently do not have them) concerning the sageo for tying people hands. I think you could use it to tie your kimono sleeve, like a tasuki.

My issue is that if the sageo was short (and there are pictures with short sageo just set behind the saya, not tied anywhere on the obi or hakama), the uses he proposes would not be possible, it seems to me.

Nowadays, the sageo is also used to tie the sword to its scabbard, to avoid it rattling in the saya. In terms of iaido, it has become a matter of decorum and can differentiate schools to an extent.

[Bugyotsuji]

Or you could ask, why do people wear a necktie?

[rematron]

Yes, could it have been used with the obi at one time? Perhaps it was useful to use it to tie to your armor if you were going into battle but not so much when you were walking around town in peaceful Edo times and needing to pull your katana out of your obi in order to sit and whatnot. And perhaps it was even useful in Edo times depending on what you were doing. If you were horseback riding you might want a little extra security other than shoving the saya through your obi. 

[OceanoNox]

2 hours ago, rematron said:

Yes, could it have been used with the obi at one time? Perhaps it was useful to use it to tie to your armor if you were going into battle but not so much when you were walking around town in peaceful Edo times and needing to pull your katana out of your obi in order to sit and whatnot.

Kuroda Tetsuzan sensei seems to use the sageo like that. In the All Japan Kendo Federation iai, and many old schools, the saya is thrust between the first and second outer layers of the obi, and is supported by the lower hakama cords. Kuroda sensei has his saya through a rope around his hips, so it makes very different to draw as there little resistance and friction from the obi.

[OceanoNox]

2 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

why do people wear a necktie?

To look SEXY when you take it off?

Joke aside, it seems to have been taken from Croatian mercenaries in France who had scarves and were copied for fashion.

Edited October 23, 2023 by OceanoNox

[Bugyotsuji]

52 minutes ago, OceanoNox said:

To look SEXY when you take it off?

Joke aside, it seems to have been taken from Croatian mercenaries in France who had scarves and were copied for fashion.

That's close to what I was meaning. Most people just wear a tie in different ways for different occasions, as the fashion demands.

Very few would be able to give the story behind the various evolutions of the necktie. It's vestigial, but a symbol of something... conformity to societal norms?

 

At the moment I am still struggling in my head to work out how to display a handachi koshirae, with the splendid sageo knot above or below...