Hagire and value

[irasdad]

Hi all,

 

I know that hagire and other kizu greatly affect the value of a blade. Naturally some more than others. I have gotten the impression that hagire are about the worst flaw (save a two piece blade, which the hagire may make some day) and pretty much make a blade worthless. Is that true? On older blades too? And is worthless being defined by, "not worth the cost of a polish", or at least that is what I keep reading (or reading into).

 

I know that there is value, then there is VALUE. Are hagire so bad they should just be avoided at all costs (say a really good price) even for study and learning? Or if there is a nice look blade, save for the hagire, is it worth having for study?

 

Just wondering...thanks.

 

G. Goodenr

[irca]

Hi Irasdad!

I have the same wounder! thanks for you give the question!

regards Claes

[Jean]

Well, in fact, to sum up. (Except for big old names) hagire = very low commercial value.

 

Can be very good study (kizu included )

[DirkO]

Well for most collectors a hagire is a definite nono.

But if you buy a blade with hagire just because you want to study the activity in the good parts of the blade, then it could be a cheap way to have some hands on experience at home. You'll have to keep in mind that it's not the best addition to a collection.

[DirkO]

Jean, you beat me because of my need for a coffee

[Jean]

Dirk,

 

Life can be hard sometime :D :D

[nagamaki - Franco]

Hi,

 

Hagire as a forging flaw is indeed a kiss of death as far as value is concerned for nihonto. On rare occasion there will be a sword with hagire that offers traits worth studying in the short term, for example, a nakago with a sho shin mei by a rated smith. Still, even here the value will be severely limited as will the number of potential buyers. The collector knowingly buying a hagire sword, even at minimal cost, should be prepared to own the sword indefinitely or possibly take a loss on resale. IMHO I find it difficult to rationalize buying a sword with a hagire or any fatal flaw, do we really need to own a fatally flawed sword to learn the lesson?

One understandable exception is owning and using a flawed sword to teach others how to spot and avoid such pieces.

[Eric H]

In this connection it is perhaps interesting to know the extent to which a "hagire blade" by a top, top high ranking Swordsmith loses value. This Kiyomaro (Masayuki) Katana was offered first at Christie's London, 2007/05/16, Lot 420, then at Christie's New York, 2007/09/18, Lot 321, Estimate $ 35,000/40,000. Well, the sword didn't find a buyer.

 

Eric

[Jean]

Now guys, forget everything.

 

There is no study blade unless being advanced.

 

Rules of thumb :

 

1 - read a lot and pound a lot

2 - become member of a Nihonto association

3 - after 2/3 years buy a sword

 

I am not kidding. 70 % (probably more than 85%) of people on Board (I count myself in) are not able to decipher correctly a blade: meaning able to draw a correct Oshigata (even if clumsy :lol: ).

 

So, no study blades (out of polish ...) Go and see a dealer's shop ans study blades there if no associations available.

 

 

Kantei is "easy" when you have a blade description with oshigata. Most of us (me included) are unable to describe correctly a blade. I have read the nihonto Nyumon and made some kantei, with not too much difficulties. I remember being the only one to kantei Darcy's Miike Juyo, years ago, I was not on the board at the time being and did it through the help of Bob Cole website (a mint of information). I would have been otherwise unable to do it. Learn by heart all the characteristics of a school/smith; match it with the given description/oshigata ==> right answer at 90% atari. Now match what you are seeing on a real blade with what you have learned, unless blatant outstanding blades you'll be far from atari at 90%.

 

Study blades in Nihonto associations and /or Collectors but don't buy low to medium out of polish blades to learn ... you have wasted money

 

I AM TALKING BY EXPERIENCE, I DID IT

[ububob]

Jean, noted with thanks.

[Clive Sinclaire]

Gentlemen

Concerning the Christie's Kiyomaro which remained unsold, it was a magnificent blade but the hagire was a real problem. Although Tanobe felt it sound enough to do a sayagaki it would not even pass Hozon shinsa if entered. Swords with hagire will always fail NBTHK shinsa.

Jean mentioned the difficulty in drawing oshigata. Oshigata are not hard to draw but they require close concentration and a great deal of patience. I am convinced that drawing oshigata is one of the best ways to study swords. I frequently borrow swords from others just to draw oshigata and I get an almost "adulterous" pleasure on returning the blade to the owner, as I know it more intimately than he does! I cannot remember who said it but the advice given to one student was " If your teacher doesn't draw oshigata, find another teacher!" A bit extreme maybe, but the point is made.

Clive Sinclaire

[Eric H]

In my understanding is the masterly drawing of OSHIGATA an art itself.

 

Eric

[Jean]

In fact what is an oshigata : it is a hand drawing no more nor less which represents all the characteristics shown by a blade. That's all.

 

As stated by Clive, it takes a lot of concentration (hours) in order to be able to capture all the activities of hamon. Above all when considering a tachi/katana.

 

You must see through the polish. As comparison, for flyfisher fellows (I know they are numerous on the board) it is not unlike fishing at sight with nymph a greyling or trout under running water and watch the strike.

 

It take years to be trained.

 

I shall give an example : here is a picture of my last sword and its Oshigata.

 

Surprising , isn'it

 

Yes Oshigata is an art

Doc1.doc

[Stephen]

here is a picture of my last sword and its Oshigata.

 

Jean id love to see it, but the doc file wont open for me.

[Jean]

Stephen, old friend, your desires are orders

[Stephen]

 

le travail très bon

[reinhard]

Oshigata are not hard to draw

 

Good oshigata are. Some oshigata are just a waste of time.

 

reinhard

[stevel48]

Can little or no value be put into a monetary unit? Does higare make the average shinshinto blade worth $100, $500, $1000,$0? In my book it's worth more than some stamped $500-$1000 modern kata because of it's historical value and cultural significance.

[Grey Doffin]

It would be tough to come up with a formula for determining value lost due to ha-giri. The more important the smith the less reduction in value, I would think. A ha-giri in a Masamune might result in a reduction of 30 to 60% and in a mumei so so wakizashi maybe 50 to 90%. But those figures might not hold true. Someone willing to collect a blade with ha-giri might not realize how serious the defect is and might be willing to pay more. If the ha-giri is close to the ha-machi the blade can be shortened to move the crack into the nakago and make it disappear. How much is value reduced in this instance? As a general rule, it makes sense to stay away from blades with ha-giri. No matter how much you like them they will likely be very tough to sell when you decide to move on.

Grey

[FlorianB]

Please remember that the appraisal of a Japanese blade based on one hand upon the aesthetic appearance but on the other hand upon the practical value. Of course no one will fight with a sword today, but in recent times where life depended on a capable weapon a hagire showed the blade could break or chip. That's why even today hagire are notorious.

 

About ten years ago I possessed - and enjoyed - a hagire blade myself but later I was glad to get rid of it because every sword connoisseur I showed the blade teared it into pieces because of the hagire.

 

If You are only interested in the aesthetics, a blade with hagire MAYBE COULD be acceptable as a study blade as mentioned above but You must realize it will always be "the blade with a hagire" in Your collection and (I'm afraid to say) in sword circles it will be infamous, too.

 

My advice: if You own a blade with hagire don't show it to anybody or sell it again soon.

 

FlorianB

[Tokaido]

Hi,

I suggest any serious sword studying club should own

- a sword with hagire,

-a saiha blade and

- a sword showing shingane

for the sake of educating the novices

Greetings

Andreas

 

PS: If can get one dirt cheap, I would buy it and donate it

[drbvac]

Very nice