Please help identify

[Aarongrant]

i am very new to this world.  I was given this sword from a friend that may be nearing his end and he wanted me to have it.  I am hoping someone out there could help me with this. Only background I have on it is that it was discovered during Korean War(1950-1953).  I’ve done a lot of research  but am confused on tang length, two holes in tang, and absolutely no markings whatsoever.  Is this the “wood grain” pattern that handmade blades have, it’s only visible under where the habaki goes-the rest of the blade is pretty scuffed where someone tried cleaning it with something abrasive. The measurements are listed below. Any information anyone could give me on this would be greatly appreciated. 


Blade length 26&7/8
Blade width at base 1&1/8(hair bigger)
Blade width at end 3/4(little bigger)
Tang length 8&1/2
Handle length without pommel 8&5/8
Overall length 36&1/2 without pommel
5/8-11/16 curve

[mywei]

This looks promising imho

 

Do you have any more closeups of the blade (middle and tip)?

[Aarongrant]

Thank you for your response. Here’s a few more pictures

[Baba Yaga]

You may have something there, it's authentic and old. Too scratched up for any ID.   

[NewB]

Lots of chikei throughout. I don't see masame in the shinogi, which makes me think - old. Kissaki is rough, measurements/photos of the mune (the thickness of the blade where the ridge starts) could answer more. Old old blade IMHO

 

y

[Brian]

Genuine, real and antique. Condition is not great though. Worth preserving. The 2 holes means it was shortened and remounted, very common. Nothing spectactular, but a real Japanese sword a few hundred years old.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Nice shape to it, modest but good quality mounts. It may very well be worth having it appraised.

[Aarongrant]

Thank you all for your responses. I will track down a caliper and get the thicknesses of blade.  Please let me know if anyone needs any more info in order to help identify, this is fascinating and I would be more than happy to send pictures or more info. 

[Rivkin]

Hard to be certain especially on a phone, but the shape leans towards pre 1500 and the school is likely Yamato. Even more speculative it’s either 1430 Mihara or 1300 Senuin. In either case likely a good sword

[Aarongrant]

the ridge runs the entire length of sword, that is if I am measuring the correct thing. I measured right above where the habaki would sit.  Added some more photos, please let me know if you need any more info/pics. 

[NewB]

@Aarongrant

 

That thickness right there. 

 

Y

[Aarongrant]

I measured where you asked, but in two different spots. One is the very back edge and the other point is closer to the sharp side. The width at the ridges on the sides of the sword are slightly wider than the very back edge. Please let me know if you need anything else. 

[Rivkin]

Let's stop that. Not helpful and scratches the blade. Potentially Mihara, early Muromachi. To say more one needs pictures of the blade which actually show some activity, not blend reflections.

[NewB]

@Rivkin 

I respectfully disagree. The blade is clearly out of polish ..

 

That I say without any provocation whatsoever 

 

@Aarongrant 

 

Bob Benson out of Hawai or anyone nearest to you with the same reputation needs to see it IMHO

 

Y

[Aarongrant]

Thank you all for your responses. Based on you guys’ experience it sounds as though I can say that this blade is at least 300 years old, would you say that is accurate?  

[mywei]

Likely older in my opinion - koto

 

Definitely worth an expert look in hand/professional window or full polish 

[Aarongrant]

Thank you mywei and everyone else. I greatly appreciate your input. I do not plan on selling this blade but out of curiosity, would a polish devalue in any way? 

[NewB]

1 hour ago, Aarongrant said:

Thank you mywei and everyone else. I greatly appreciate your input. I do not plan on selling this blade but out of curiosity, would a polish devalue in any way? 

 

Polish and papers only increase the value however full restoration plus a suitable wooden scabbard Plus the cost of shipping and having a NBTHK kantei would cost in the 5k range hence - have it looked at first by someone knowledgeable IMHO. 

 

J.

[ROKUJURO]

Aaron,

the age is not really important, but the quality is. There are 500 year old swords that have much less value than one made by a renowned smith in 1800.

Just to mention it: Polishing means a traditional restoration by an expert, not done by the scissors grinder around the corner!

[Aarongrant]

Thank you rokujuro. Not to concerned of the value, but at the same time I don’t want to decrease it. I am more into the history of this sword, age being fascinating to me for some reason. I wish the tang was stamped so very badly. Crazy to think that this has been sitting in a friend of mines closet for 30 years or so. He had never researched it, but was special to him because his father gave it to him. 

[mywei]

You won't decrease the value if restored by a togishi, and then papered, only increase it - but this can be an expensive process as stated previously.

It is common for koto blades to not have a signature by the maker as they have been shortened over the centuries (signatures are chiselled, not stamped)

[Aarongrant]

Thank you. I’m sure one day I will have appraised/polished/papers. I would love to pass something like this down to my kiddos, their kiddos, etc. 

[Aarongrant]

Built a stand and saya for it. Here it will set until I can get polished. 

[Ron M]

That’s a neat looking stand you made. Most people do not display the blade openly in this way as it collects dust and grime which is then transferred into the saya, which then scratches the blade, but if you’re happy with that then do it!

[Aarongrant]

I don’t plan on using the saya. I only put the sword in there to check fit. The inside of the saya probably isn’t proper fit and will most likely scratch the blade after polished. Definitely won’t place the blade in this after polish. I was just bored and thought it would be cool to build one for it. Stand was made from dowel rods and some scrap lumber laying around. 

[AlexiG]

12 hours ago, Aarongrant said:

I don’t plan on using the saya.

Hi Aaron,

 

just sharing personal experience here but displaying a bare blade over long period of time may require a much more frequent care to keep pristine. 

 

My experience with a cheap blade I kept on a stand bare (since I did not want to invest in a proper saya) was that after ~ 5 months it developed very light speckly rust, although it was cleaned and oiled every two weeks, no exceptions. Relative humidity and temperature in the room  plays a major role. For me it can vary from 30% to >60% humidity. None of my valuable blades stored in a saya and storage bag have a problem being kept in the same room and being cleaned and oiled with the same oil. This unplanned experiment leads me to believe that the saya does an important job  

 

Sory if I misunderstood your intent.

 

Alexi

[Aarongrant]

I appreciate your insight. Any suggestion on a safer way to store it in a manner that I can still admire it without handling every time?  I’d really like to put it on display, but at the same time do not want to create damage. Maybe a shadow box with a gasket? 

[Ron M]

Hi again, there are some nice cases out there for displaying a sword that are sealed against humidity and dust. They are in no way cheap but are incredibly nice. 
 I believe there is a Japanese member on here who makes very classy cases so maybe someone knows him or you can search this site for his comments and then contact him. You may be able to google his work too 😉

[AlexiG]

On 10/10/2023 at 5:08 AM, Aarongrant said:

I appreciate your insight. Any suggestion on a safer way to store it in a manner that I can still admire it without handling every time?  I’d really like to put it on display, but at the same time do not want to create damage. Maybe a shadow box with a gasket? 

Hi Aaron,

 

we options come to mind, if you'd like to display the blade. 

1) Ron's idea above to get/build a display case that controls the moisture and protects the blade from dust

2) display for short periods of time and let the blade spend most of its time in the saya, well protected. Rotate your display blades.

3) meticulously clean/oil the blade (wipe off excess oil as it attracts dust) few times a week, depending on your weather, and monitor closely.

 

All of these are risk/cost/benefit calculations that only you can decide what is best for you. Folks here may have other suggestions.

 

Best,

Alexi

[Rivkin]

Dedicated cases are exceptionally expensive. The key is however to make sure there is no dust, no active rust and humidity is below 60%. Given this even blade in polish will typically be fine.

Early shitahara is another name that comes to mind when I look at it now.

Again this is all super-guessy given a very few things that are visible, without boshi etc., but ....