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Emblem identification

Yves

By Yves
in General Nihonto Related Discussion

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rematron Grand Master

rematron

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Yves, I would think a simple search of the internet on the symbolic meaning of a fan and/or a butterfly in Japan would reveal a lot.  To me it doesn't look like a crest.  It looks like a depiction of everyday things that might have a symbolic significance when paired but perhaps not.  But I could be wrong, of course.  It is a nice image.

Yves Collaborator

Yves

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1 hour ago, rebcannonshooter said:

The butterfly appears to be an AGEHA-CHO mon of the TAIRA clan.  I've seen several slight variations of this mon, but I don't know the significance of it landing on a fan.

Tom

I also had the impression it is the Taira clan Ageha. But it riddles me why the fan is there. 

GeorgeLuucas Mentor

GeorgeLuucas

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Yves said:

I also had the impression it is the Taira clan Ageha. But it riddles me why the fan is there. 


It looks extremely similar. I'd say definitely/probably swallowtail butterfly (ageha)

It has very slight differences to the Taira clan Ageha mon. Most noticeably the antenna on the Taira Clan Mon makes a full swirl/loop above the wing

Whereas your ageha antenna appears to loop behind the wing

Lovely piece. I'd love to see more/closer photos
 

taira clan.jpeg

Edited by GeorgeLuucas
/probably
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Yves Collaborator

Yves

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3 hours ago, rematron said:

Yves, I would think a simple search of the internet on the symbolic meaning of a fan and/or a butterfly in Japan would reveal a lot.  To me it doesn't look like a crest.  It looks like a depiction of everyday things that might have a symbolic significance when paired but perhaps not.  But I could be wrong, of course.  It is a nice image.

The ageha signifies transformation, rebirth.
A fan is the symbol of multiple paths leading away from the beginning.
So it could indeed be a combination.

I've purchased a whole set of fuchi kashira for daisho and kozuka with this design and it will be used on a set of swords I've ordered in Japan. I intend to use it in a kamon that will go on the habaki. 

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Yves Collaborator

Yves

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4 minutes ago, GeorgeLuucas said:


It looks extremely similar. I'd say definitely swallowtail butterfly (ageha)

It has very slight differences to the Taira clan Ageha mon. Most noticeably the antenna on the Taira Clan Mon makes a full swirl/loop above the wing

Whereas your ageha antenna appears to loop behind the wing

Lovely piece. I'd love to see more/closer photos
 

Attached the fuchi kashira with the same design. 

F22513.jpg

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rematron Grand Master

rematron

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36 minutes ago, Yves said:

The ageha signifies transformation, rebirth.
A fan is the symbol of multiple paths leading away from the beginning.
So it could indeed be a combination.

I've purchased a whole set of fuchi kashira for daisho and kozuka with this design and it will be used on a set of swords I've ordered in Japan. I intend to use it in a kamon that will go on the habaki. 

A wonderful discovery for you and beautiful symbology.  Your koshirae will look fantastic with these pieces.  Congrats!

GeorgeLuucas Mentor

GeorgeLuucas

Posted
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One thing that I notice is the lack of the “swallowtail” shape on the rear wings of the koshirae parts.
 

Might just be the butterfly’s positioning

 

Very nice looking koshirae, and fun sounding project. I’m jealous, and wish you luck! 

FADE4C34-95E0-4DCC-9D46-35272D3D3F9D.jpeg

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Yves Collaborator

Yves

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13 minutes ago, GeorgeLuucas said:

One thing that I notice is the lack of the “swallowtail” shape on the rear wings of the koshirae parts.
 

Might just be the butterfly’s positioning

 

Very nice looking koshirae, and fun sounding project. I’m jealous, and wish you luck! 

FADE4C34-95E0-4DCC-9D46-35272D3D3F9D.jpeg

Actually there is a tail but pointing downward and not very well visible. 

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Yves Collaborator

Yves

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Another question but this time around the Menuki. I think that normally the koshirae on the daisho is a set, but does this also mean that the menuki have to be the same.
As mentioned above and purely on the basis of spiritual meaning:
- ageha cho: transformation/rebirth/growth
- fan: muliple paths starting from the same beginning
- I have plum tree blossoms in the tsuba which mean perseverance.
For the menuki: 
I was thinking of combining a phoenix on the daito and coiled dragon on the shoto:
- phoenix: rebirth/rising from the ashes.
- coiled dragon: unitiy of anything material and spiritual/continous circle of destruction and recreation. 

s-l1600.jpg

01.jpg

ROKUJURO Grand Master

ROKUJURO

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It depends on your personal goals. If you want to create an individual set of swords with similar TOSOGU but with a personal (more or less hidden) meaning, then different MENUKI might fit.

I think most collectors would understand a perfect DAISHO to have blades from the same smith (ideally signed and dated) and KOSHIRAE/TOSOGU in closely matching material and style.

OceanoNox Community Regular

OceanoNox

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I have read recently that the tousougu are usually one of the following:

1- 揃い　all the same "image" (e.g. fans) but with different executions (different numbers, orientations, shapes, etc.);

2- 尽くし　same theme (e.g. seasons), with different tousougu showing different aspects of a theme;

3- 語り　a "story", with the story unfolding as the tousougu are looked at around the sword.

Now, this is a reading, likely imperfect, from a Japanese article that I have read quickly, called: 刀装具のかざりの構成 by 宮崎　友見子

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Yves Collaborator

Yves

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Yes, I think they would mostly be a set. The problem is that these sets are very hard to find. Either you find fuchi kashira with kozuka or kozuka, kogai and menuki but not all of them. 

Yves Collaborator

Yves

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I seem to have some bad luck. Was going to go with Tozando to have the katana made and outfitted with my fittings, but they seem to be reluctant because the fittings are ancient fittings. Not amused.

Yves Collaborator

Yves

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I tried to write to them at some point but they never (early in the proces) responded. Quite a strange situation in Japan it seems. Not sure what to make of that. Very unfortunate as at first everything was not a problem and now all of a sudden it is. After I bought the parts mind you. And this is not the first time I had someone selling something with swords in Japan back out in last instance. I'm a firm believer in keeping promises you make and sticking to your word. 

Brian

Brian

Posted
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His email is here:


Hey Robert  @Keichodo
If your inbox is full, delete some of those old pm's or spring for one of those new fangled Gold memberships. Or maybe you prefer not to get messages.

 

Yves Collaborator

Yves

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Why then going over the details for weeks confirming things are possible to ultimately not reply? This comes across as quite rude especially after I bought the fittings (and believe me they were not cheap). I made it specifically clear to them what my intention was. If this wasn't possible they could have let me know far earlier and not at the point where I agreed with their price and asked for an invoice that I could pay.


Anyway, the firm where I bought my fittings is willing to work with me on this. So they will be the ones that will in the end get to sell the swords (one of 1993 and one of the Enpo era) to me and make a profit. Guess he was convinced of my intentions after I bought my fittings and he had no issues getting paid by me.  Only drawback is that the swords are no-hi and I originally wanted bo-hi. So be it. 

Keichodo Community Regular

Keichodo

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Greetings everyone!

 

I wasn't aware that my mail box had exceeded capacity. Although , I should have anticipated such an outcome as I have never deleted any messages until today.

 

The communication hotline should be cleared up.... now. sorry to inconvenience anyone!

 

Not sure how many others have not received a response from me, but if it happened apologies! It was not intentional as I try and respond to all inquiries... even the most trying ones that push my patience to the liquor cabinet....

 

Anyway, if I can be of help to you, Yves, please contact me! Actually, today I have a meeting with the the Wakayama Prefecture sword smith Ryujintaro Sadashige to discuss a custom order blade that will include his exquisite horimono.

 

As Brian mentioned, the direct approach is through my business e-mail address which is keichodo@yahoo.com.

 

Best,

 

Robert

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