Three in a row = two too many

[Spartancrest]

I have watched these guards go by for years now and always suspected there was something "wrong" about them - this week three have gone through the auctions and I don't believe they are 'utsushi' particularly when the 'gold' paint starts wearing off!

Also check out the poor nanako, they are very well copied but nonetheless they are not hand made and far too common to be authentic! Two slightly different designs depending on the size - check the daisho image.

       

Mentioned in this old thread - https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/30613-ishiguro-teruaki-tsuba-last-successor-of-the-ishiguro-school/

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/g1106650580

https://www.jauce.com/auction/r1106626747

https://www.jauce.com/auction/g1106314562

https://www.pinteres.../408912841151246737/

https://www.pinteres.../449093394075773955/

https://www.aoijapan...daisho-tsubamomo-ei/

 

A round one here at Christies, unsigned - lets hope it was real!  https://www.christie...m=salessummary&lid=1

[Brian]

You are running a mine clearing operation in a huge minefield that is constantly expanding Dale. Kudos to you

[Shirogitsune]

Even when they are putatively real they are still not worth collecting.  I was looking at one in the Minneapolis show in 2016 and Bill Rannow wisely pointed out that at best they were mass produced, hardly better than Hamamono, just flashier.

[Spartancrest]

5 hours ago, Shirogitsune said:

hardly better than Hamamono, just flashier.

This is certainly a "Flashy" example of the more common repro - Hamano - not Hamamono as mentioned by Phil. 

["Hama-mono" or "Hama-yuki" in slang. This means "things for Yokohama" or "going to Yokohama". Yokohama was a harbour where many Japanese things were exported to the West. Hama-mono is made as one of the fine arts of Japan, but with no samurai spirit.  http://www.ksky.ne.j...umie99/hamamono.html ]

 

https://www.bonhams....hearly-20th-century/

 "Hamano" -Sold for £1,750 inc. premium - Someone paid a huge amount for a good paint job, but still a repro - at least a thousand of these getting about! 

https://www.yesterye...?variant=19139447749  This  uncoloured one sold for $900  - Ouch!!! People are not just being ripped off they are being held up at gun point!

   

If you look closely all the examples have identical tagane-ato "Star" or "Chrysanthemum" punch marks in the same spots, often the face of the Samurai is blurred or crushed, the planks of the bridge have patchy nanako  and the Bow where it goes into the seppa-dai is always crushed and wider than the rest [as if it has been mounted] but I have yet to find a guard that has been on a sword. You might also notice the nakago-ana - all have the slightly more angled bend on the right hand side just under the bow.

 

One honest seller here- https://www.ebay.com/itm/115662665468  but even his price is far too high for what he admits is a   Japanese Vintage "Hamano Noriyuki" Samurai Bronze Tsuba Modern Reproduction and it is pretty poorly maintained most of the telltales have been erased!

[Spartancrest]

For anyone interested I have an image of a papered utsushi by a Mito artist - it is not signed and does not have any of the 'tells' found on the repro versions. I think the original Hamano might be in a museum collection.

The quality of the Mito piece is outstanding - makes you wonder just how good the real Hamano was/is?

 

[ChrisW]

Thanks for the education regarding these mass-produced/reproductions Dale!

[Spartancrest]

A pet hate of mine - whether coloured or plain - give anything like these, a wide berth. You won't find the original being up for sale and all you will end up with is a good quality reproduction - most of the time not even "good".

Under that paint is an alloy casting, the "gold" ategane are superficial and were never cut all the way through. Unless like this first tampered with example, you will see cast in sekigane - true, often painted over very convincingly but still not added after manufacture. Once again two sizes were made. Some shockingly high prices have seen uninformed people being taken to the cleaners - often begging the question "did the seller know what they were selling?"

Due diligence is often no defense, I know of one museum "expert" in Italy who judged one as an authentic Edo period piece even though it exhibited all the faults and the "gold" had partly rubbed off exposing the grey alloy underneath!

By the way there are copies of this design still being made TODAY - nothing like getting a fresh one!

        https://www.ebay.com/itm/354830615338  nakago-ana recut to put on a "real" sword

 

      

 

  https://www.ebay.com/itm/155726746100

 

  https://www.etsy.com...-antique-rare-bronze  This one made me laugh "Rare find"

 

   https://www.ebay.com/itm/124628490300  A bargain at $39 - that is getting closer to the true value, just drop the 9!

https://www.worthpoi...-priest-large-katana

https://thumbs.worth...e9b3be1e9139292f.jpg  

https://thumbs.worth...e9b3be1e9139292f.jpg

 

   https://www.jauce.com/auction/s1098411890  Lets bury an iron one for a few years - it will make it look so much more "real"

 

   https://sbg-sword-st...rect-custom-options/    Wet paint!

 

 

[Matsunoki]

@SpartancrestThanks Dale, these have cropped up in UK auctions as well - with the inevitable sad result for someone.

There is another famous big tsuba that has some very convincing “copies”. It’s large, I think of rounded square shape and depicts a ferocious Shoki chasing Oni. I’m remembering the design goes into the seppadai?

Has that cropped up on the Forum?

You memory far better than mine!

[rematron]

There's at least one of these on yahoo basically every time I browse there.

[BrentC]

Great information, really helpful.   thanks for posting!

[Spartancrest]

On 9/19/2023 at 11:07 PM, Matsunoki said:

There is another famous big tsuba that has some very convincing “copies”. It’s large, I think of rounded square shape and depicts a ferocious Shoki chasing Oni. I’m remembering the design goes into the seppadai?

Colin is it this one? These come in all sorts of colours and would make nice looking paperweights - but not at the price Bonhams sold one for!

  https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/386009254646 [US $743.89]

You can see from the price difference I prefer to shop at Jauce for my fakes!    https://aucview.aucf...m/yahoo/p1044780136/ particularly bad colours!

 

Or are you thinking of the Geisha pulling out the tongue with a pair of pliers?

The Meiji era (?) one is often very well done but there must be half a dozen copies of copies getting about of these now. Like this "thing"

   https://sallyantique...ith-mythical-beasts/

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/126043891606  I wonder if you can pay fake money for it? 

  

 

There is a thread here when Yas, Yasaka Azuma was doing some good spotting of fakes. I miss his input.

 

[Matsunoki]

11 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

Colin is it this one? These come in all sorts of colours and would make nice looking paperweights - but not at the price Bonhams sold one for!

Dale, I was probably thinking of both of them…hence mixing up shape and subject!!  I knew you’d be very familiar with them but some are so very well done they are scarily fooling auction houses as you illustrate(Bonhams etc) and also dealers. I was offered one by a dealer who “isn’t a dealer” on this forum! No names!!!!!

But, when you “get your eye in” they are pretty obvious.

Everyone beware! ….these are multi-patinated on an alloy base and not true mixed metal inlay. Some even have car paint on them.

thanks Dale

Colin

[Spartancrest]

On 9/20/2023 at 1:49 AM, rematron said:

There's at least one of these on yahoo basically every time I browse there.

https://www.jauce.com/auction/j1106303589  or https://buyee.jp/ite.../auction/j1106303589    nice colour - but still a copy.

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/f1041785451  or  https://buyee.jp/ite.../auction/f1041785451   your basic black.

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/e1107091428  or   https://buyee.jp/ite.../auction/e1107091428  more of the same

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/k1103157484  or  https://buyee.jp/ite.../auction/k1103157484

 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/d1040311220  or  https://buyee.jp/ite.../auction/d1040311220   Apparently this one is  ☆★Antique heaven☆★luxury!  Well who would have guessed! 

 

rematron  [ Jeremy ] That is five in a week spread over the usual auction sites plus those that spill over onto ebay and others that go on other auction sites and probably Facebook etc. You start to wonder just how many there really are. I still have one image where one dealer was selling five in one go - buy in bulk and save!

[Spartancrest]

I truly don't know if this should go in this thread or "Something to make you smile" 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/c1108034443  or  https://buyee.jp/ite.../auction/c1108034443   

 

¥ 40,000    -   By my calculations that has four zeros too many in the price!