Echizen Seki - please comment.

2devnul · September 14, 2023

Hello,

Please find below pictures of my new purchase. I'm looking for any comments. Especially any attribution comments (or paper translation) that will help to determine the time period and (if that is even possible) the smith. Thank you all for help!

2devnul · September 14, 2023

More pictures.

2devnul · September 14, 2023

More pictures.

2devnul · September 14, 2023

More pictures.

Soshin · September 14, 2023

It looks like Shinshinto to me. Can you please post some detail photos of the nakago (tang) without the habaki (blade collar) please? That would be extremely helpful.

2devnul · September 14, 2023

38 minutes ago, Soshin said:

It looks like Shinshinto to me. Can you please post some detail photos of the nakago (tang) without the habaki (blade collar) please? That would be extremely helpful.

I will be traveling until Sunday but I will definitely post more Nakago pictures as requested as soon I'm back home. Thanks! Any other pics needed?

It will be nice to know (or at least have possible assumption) the smith. But I'm more interested in period. As I will be ordering Koshirae for this Wakizashi and would like to purchase Tsuba/Fuchi/Kashira/Menuki/Kojiri from the same period (if I can find any).

mywei · September 14, 2023

A generic attribution to Echizen Seki would more likely be a Shinto I think as that was their most active period?

On a side note, it's great you're planning to make a koshirae for this but be aware that it will not be financially worth it in the end (it never is, regardless of blade) but in this case may end up costing more than the blade itself it you're going for Edo period fittings and the proper craftsmen

2devnul · September 14, 2023

1 hour ago, mywei said:

A generic attribution to Echizen Seki would more likely be a Shinto I think as that was their most active period?

On a side note, it's great you're planning to make a koshirae for this be aware that it will not be financially worth it in the end (it never is, regardless of blade) but in this case may end up costing more than the blade itself it you're going for Edo period fittings and the proper craftsmen

Thanks Matt. I would also lean towards early Edo and Shinto (or at least I hope for it).

I fully agree about Koshirae costs. Simple example, below Fuchi and Kashira costed me already 250$ and that's just a start of completing the set. However, for me personally, nice Koshirae matters a lot. I'm willing to pay for it and I'm aware that I probably won't get my money back if I want to sell the sword in future (although not planning to).

Soshin · September 15, 2023

22 hours ago, 2devnul said:

I fully agree about Koshirae costs. Simple example, below Fuchi and Kashira costed me already 250$ and that's just a start of completing the set. However, for me personally, nice Koshirae matters a lot. I'm willing to pay for it and I'm aware that I probably won't get my money back if I want to sell the sword in future (although not planning to).

Hi Adam,

The Shinto Era call sounds good to me. Echizen Seki School with very active in the Shinto Era with many different swordsmiths. Yes, assembling a koshirae is a very money losing process. It can be rewarding if in the end you get something that you like and plan to keep for an extraordinarily long time in your personal collection. You should be aware that all dealers from the USA to Japan and all place in-between (i.e. Poland) will generally break down all assembled koshirae for share parts or sell parts individually that are of decent quality. I learned that the hard way while trying to have a Japanese art business in the USA that had a fair number of Japanese swords. Thankfully, the business is closed, and my conscious is clear.

2devnul · September 15, 2023

47 minutes ago, Soshin said:

Hi Adam,

The Shinto Era call sounds good to me. Echizen Seki School with very active in the Shinto Era with many different swordsmiths....

Hi David,

Nice to mee you and thank you for your hard work! I visited your webpage, the pictures from your trips to Japan, love them. Thanks!

Your comment explains why we see so many available fittings/tsuba on the market. To bad for the swords, but good for collectors that look for new fittings (there a lot to chose from). I don't plan to sell this sword, unless its a life and death (and that happens, we all know that) situation. It will be my main collection display, along with the Wakizashi from Tadayoshi that I have (yes, yes, I know, its gimei for y'all *joke*).

I already started to look and have few candidates. I'm pretty sure about Tsuba, Fuchi/Kashira is also nice but ... on Sunday I will be visiting one of dealers in Poland, there I hope to find something that will be perfect fit.

Attaching pictures of my Tsuba pick and current Fuchi/Kashira (might change).

I'm also thinking about Kata Menuki on Saya, as my friend has this awesome (but quiet big, even for Katana) single menuki (3 drunk guys).

Baba Yaga · September 15, 2023

2 hours ago, Soshin said:

You should be aware that all dealers from the USA to Japan and all place in-between (i.e. Poland) will generally break down all assembled koshirae for share parts or sell parts individually that are of decent quality. I learned that the hard way while trying to have a Japanese art business in the USA that had a fair number of Japanese swords. Thankfully, the business is closed, and my conscious is clear.

Yep, those are some true words. I have no idea why this is still happening in this market.

Jacques D. · September 15, 2023

The Echizen Seki school is a Shinto school, and the swordsmiths of this school (Kanenori, Kanetane) have worked in collaboration with the Yasutsugu school, so there are certain similarities in their work (dark jigane, for example).

2devnul · September 15, 2023

8 hours ago, Baba Yaga said:

Yep, those are some true words. I have no idea why this is still happening in this market.

Money?

7 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

The Echizen Seki school is a Shinto school, and the swordsmiths of this school (Kanenori, Kanetane) have worked in collaboration with the Yasutsugu school, so there are certain similarities in their work (dark jigane, for example).

Thanks Jacques! Do I understand correctly that it's highly possible that Kanenori or Kanetane were smiths that worked on this blade? Any specific picture that could help? I will take some pictures of Nakago for David so please let me know if there is anything that you look for.

Shinto sounds good to me. I'm aiming with Koshirae parts to be from early Edo. Although it's hard to be sure if it is early or late Edo. Main goal, Edo period.

Tsuka-ito color also decided. I will go with Tettsu, as I don't have that Tsuka-ito color in my collection yet.

Saya probably dark cheery color or dark navy blue color. With Menuki (3 drunk guys) and buffalo horn elements.

Soshin · September 16, 2023

12 hours ago, 2devnul said:

20 hours ago, Baba Yaga said:

Yep, those are some true words. I have no idea why this is still happening in this market.

Money?

Yes, you have the correct answer in my opinion.

@2devnul Adam, looking forward to seeing the additional photos of that specific part of the nakago. In answer to your question. I don't think an attribution to a specific swordsmith within the Echizen Seki School is possible, but I am not a Japanese sword expert. The NBTHK has already formally examined the sword during its shinsa (the shinsa panel is full of Japanese sword experts) and issued a Hozon level paper with the attribution to the Echizen Seki School. It should be noted that school belongs to the very prolific Mino tradition.

Jacques D. · September 16, 2023

Adam @

Quote

Thanks Jacques! Do I understand correctly that it's highly possible that Kanenori or Kanetane were smiths that worked on this blade

No, I mentioned these smiths because they're the most renowned, but there were of course other smiths who worked in this school, such as Kanetaka, Kanemasa, Tsuguhiro, Hirotaka and others.

Alex A · September 16, 2023

Hello,

Reminds me of a sword i own with the Masame above the ridge. That can be one of a line of three smiths that worked around 1600

Without distinguishing features very difficult , especially from images. Sometimes you just got to accept that.

If the folks that papered it had trouble narrowing it down, i understand why.

Its a good sword, like it

2devnul · September 17, 2023

On 9/16/2023 at 1:26 PM, Soshin said:

@2devnul Adam, looking forward to seeing the additional photos of that specific part of the nakago. ..... It should be noted that school belongs to the very prolific Mino tradition.

I will be posting pictures of Nakago, I promise. I hope I will have time to make some today.

Is there a chance to read something interesting from the certificate? Do you need other/better pictures of the paper too?

17 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Adam @

No, I mentioned these smiths because they're the most renowned, but there were of course other smiths who worked in this school, such as Kanetaka, Kanemasa, Tsuguhiro, Hirotaka and others.

Got it, thank you. It is always nice to speculate, examine and do researches. One of the cools parts of collecting Nihonto.

12 hours ago, Alex A said:

Hello,

Reminds me of a sword i own with the Masame above the ridge. That can be one of a line of three smiths that worked around 1600

....

Its a good sword, like it

Thanks Alex, I like it too. It was difficult to pick one sword (budget limits) from all I haven been watching. But having an Echizen in collection was must have for me. Plus, it is indeed a nice sword and in almost perfect condition/polish.

Early Edo sounds great, I was just hoping it's Shinto and not Shinshinto. That I think we can be certain.

Can you please mention names of these 3 smiths? I'm planning to dig further and maybe compare (can you share pictures of your blade please? PM if needed) swords of potential smiths with my own to see any patterns.

If anyone is interested then please find a below picture of yesterday's purchase of the complete set for Koshirae.

Dealer was assuring me that all parts are Edo (maybe not all from early) period. Looks legit to me and I think it will be perfect fit for the sword along with Tettsu Tsuka-ito and dark cheery Saya.

Alex A · September 17, 2023

Hi Adam,

As said, if Shinsa cant call it then i don't want to be throwing names up and leading you on a wild goose chase,, so to speak.

The hada in your sword does remind me of the one i have but there were many that worked that way. Appears as Itame with Masame above. in your images

This paragraph from Markus highlights the headache for Kantei.

The transition from Sue-Seki to Shinto can be difficult, ive given up being too picky and like i said, just accept it.

The most knowledgeable folks have papered it the best they can.

"A good way to identify a shintô is to check if there is masame in the shinogi-ji (see bottom picture below). So if this is the case, it is safe to concentrate on shintô. But please bear in mind that itame along the hira-ji and masame in the shinogi-ji is also a typical feature of Sue-Seki blades so you might check first if something speaks for Sue-Seki (i.e. sugata with sakizori, togari or fushi elements, shirake) before taking the shintô road on the basis of the masame in the shinogi-ji. Incidentally, it is said that the shintô masame in the shinogi-ji actually goes back to Sue-Seki as the majority of early shintô smiths had Mino roots. That means at the end of the kotô era, Bizen was literally wiped off the map as largest sword production site by the devastating flood of the Yoshii river and this left Mino, and Seki in particular, as leading manufacturer of blades. In short, the early shintô smiths who were hired from there by the newly established domains just continued to work on the basis of their scholastic Mino background. Their successors adjusted to the trend to refinement but by keeping basic elements like masame in the shinogi-ji. And that is why this Sue-Seki element “survived” in shintô times."

A good read

https://markussesko....i-2-jigane-jihada-2/

2devnul · September 17, 2023

@Alex A

Thank you very much! Great article, I will need to study Hamon further for patters but I got your point. From the first look indeed looks like a mix of Itame-Masame. I also noticed that beginning of Hamon (like first 5-6cm) is Suguha, then goes into Notare/Midate up till the end. Was that also common (to start with Suguha)?

@Soshin

I'm attaching Nakago pictures. Is this what you were looking for?

Thank you again to everyone for the comments!

2devnul · September 19, 2023

Hello,

So here are my findings from the investigation so far. Please note that I'm aware that I can't be more precise then NBTHK, but it's just for fun.

I think we can be pretty sure it is Shinto. Moreover, I do think I have potential candidate for the smith. I examined available on Internet pictures/documentation of swords from Echizen Seki school (several smiths have some pieces well documented) and in my humble opinion Hirotaka is the best pick.

Blade geometry, Kissaki, Nakago, Hada and especially the way he experimented on Hamon (mixing multiple styles on single sword) makes me believe that he might be responsible (or one of his apprentices/students) for the blade.

We also have 'papered' examples of his swords which are Mumei (like mine).

What do you think? Again, it is just for fun. We can speculate but I understand that it is rather impossible to pinpoint smith (at least at this moment).

Soshin · September 19, 2023

@2devnul They nakago photos looks great in my opinion, nice and healthy without any flaw (kizu). This is important in my book. You have a nice Shinto Era blade in my opinion. @Alex A did an excellent job of summarizing the reasons it would be impossible to identify a specific swordsmith to your unsigned blade. In some other specific cases, it might be possible to attribute an unsigned sword to a specific swordsmith but in your case, it is not possible.

Alex A · September 19, 2023

Hi Adam,

If you find an exact match for the work then it could be the same smith, but then again you will find very similar work from other smiths.

A "could be " is as near as you will get.

This perfectly demonstrates the issue we have with mumei blades.

As mentioned before, not just mumei. Signed works by generations where the work and mei are similar, can be a real headache.

There has to be something that stands out and makes it distinguishable, to narrow the field.

It was owning such swords that made me a little obsessed with anything that has provenance or inscriptions that add more information, hence more into Shinshinto and later of late.

2devnul · September 19, 2023

4 hours ago, Soshin said:

@2devnul They nakago photos looks great in my opinion, nice and healthy without any flaw (kizu). This is important in my book. You have a nice Shinto Era blade in my opinion....

Thank you David, that is also the reason why I will not spare $ on the Koshirae. I'm planning to keep the sword as long as possible, hopefully till the day I die :laughing:

2 hours ago, Alex A said:

...If you find an exact match for the work then it could be the same smith, but then again you will find very similar work from other smiths.

A "could be " is as near as you will get...

Agreed! Still, doing the research and discussing it with other collectors is a lot of fun. It's an added value to the sword itself. Once again, thank you for sharing your knowledge and a great read (link!) from Markus.

Cheers!

Alex A · September 19, 2023

Well done for getting stuck into the research.

2devnul · February 12

Hello,

Still stuck on research. I'm looking for any links/pictures of work from Hirotaka - Echizen Seki school.

Please share any if you have.

Also, if you have any other comments/hints then it will be much appreciated. Let me also know if you need more/different pictures of my blade.

Rivkin · February 12

I think its classic Echizen seki. An attractive one, with good jigane (almost makes me think shitahara as an alternative), good though not very strong on nie hamon.

The issue with shinto sorry to say but there is not much to research. In koto its like crazy world with attributions, in shinto there is just not much to say.

2devnul · February 13

Hi,

I fully agree with all statements about having it difficult to pinpoint who is the smith. What I'm doing is just for fun and it also drives me to study this nice piece in general. I'm finding more and more Hirotaka swords which have similarities to mine. Some of them are Mumei, like my Wakizashi.

Here is latest example: https://sanmei.com/c...a/O50144_S2214_E.htm

Therefore, if anyone have pictures/links of Hirotaka's work, please share them. If you have a sword of this smith, then it will be even better (if you are eager to chat with me about it).

Again, thank you everyone for your comments! Much appreciated.

PS. Maybe my sword is not 'rich' enough to be Hirotaka's legacy. But could it be one of his apprentices? That is the reason for similarities (at least IMO).