Shinsaku Katana (was sold as Gendaito, but looks younger) - any comments please.

[2devnul]

Hello!

 

I just bought this Katana and would like to hear your comments. Mei = MasaToshi. I have a Tanto with almost exactly the same Mei so hoping that this is the same smith. Link to Tanto: https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/45851-shinsaku-osoraku-tanto-how-to-classify-this-hamon-typestyle

 

Also, is Shinsaku a proper term for modern made swords? 

Please comment, thank you!

 

 

 

 

[DoTanuki yokai]

Don’t know why someone would think komonjo sells something modern that is not Gimei. The real fun part are the people who always tell what all of there komonjo stuff papered but noone shows the blades and the papers to proof it. This happens so consequently that I’m sure they lie 

[Guest Simon R]

1 hour ago, DoTanuki yokai said:

Don’t know why someone would think komonjo sells something modern that is not Gimei. The real fun part are the people who always tell what all of there komonjo stuff papered but noone shows the blades and the papers to proof it. This happens so consequently that I’m sure they lie 

It's very useful if you want a 'daisho' - you buy one signed blade, then send a photo of the mei to Komonjo and he'll chisel it onto another sword for you.

Voila - a daisho!

[2devnul]

19 minutes ago, SRDRowson said:

It's very useful if you want a 'daisho' - you buy one signed blade, then send a photo of the mei to Komonjo and he'll chisel it onto another sword for you.

Voila - a daisho!

 

This is something I considered before buying. That they do the Mei themself on random blades. However, hamon or nakago file marks looks quiet similar so the source might be the same. Who knows if it is Nihonto after all (although looks alike, so blacksmith/s know their job). 

 

As for 'papered' ones I can't comment as I haven't bought any. From what I seen the papers are usually the 'white' ones (those need verification from the box as per my knowledge and the legit part might too). Also, most of the blades are in very poor polish or condition. I would NOT pay that much for blade that I can't see with my own eyes. 

 

Any other comments about blade itself are appreciated. Especially the comments about the blade, not komonjo

[Guest Simon R]

27 minutes ago, 2devnul said:

 

This is something I considered before buying. That they do the Mei themself on random blades. However, hamon or nakago file marks looks quiet similar so the source might be the same. Who knows if it is Nihonto after all (although looks alike, so blacksmith/s know their job). 

 

As for 'papered' ones I can't comment as I haven't bought any. From what I seen the papers are usually the 'white' ones (those need verification from the box as per my knowledge and the legit part might too). Also, most of the blades are in very poor polish or condition. I would NOT pay that much for blade that I can't see with my own eyes. 

 

Any other comments about blade itself are appreciated. Especially the comments about the blade, not komonjo

Forget it - I was just being a wanker as usual.

[DoTanuki yokai]

1 hour ago, 2devnul said:

 

…(although looks alike, so blacksmith/s know their job). 

…

I also asked some people who bought from komonjo if they can show a picture of the Nioiguchi, that was also not delivered. 
So i would contest your statement  

[Larason2]

I have more than a few blades like this, also purchased from komonjo. I wouldn't have bid on this one though, because I consider the start of the hamon to have been hardened too far from the edge in several spots. It's not a problem for display, but may be a problem if you plan to use it! It's hard to see, but I suspect yours has been machine ground on the end of the nakago, and the flash was not filed off, a tell tale this is Chinese. Also, as mentioned, no nioi or nie to speak of. Still, these "Komonjo specials" show a very fine hada, and are otherwise very well forged. The polishing isn't bad, but they are deficient in the time spent on the uchigomori and jizuya/hazuya steps (the most time consuming). Personally, I would be happy I found such a fine reproduction at such a low price! This is not a nihonto, however, but a good quality clone. Many other owners of these swords on another forum are very happy with these blades as reproductions. Try making one of these for the price you paid!

 

There are a lot of different words for "new" Japanese swords, and they mean different things to different people. Gendaito, shinshinto, and shinsakuto are just some of them. You also hear Showa a lot, but less so Heisei or Reiwa. There's more than one forum post on the NMB about this, and there seem to be different opinions about what they mean, and no agreement! I think the best is just to say when it was made if you know, and use "recently forged" in English instead of the Japanese names, since they can be confusing.

[francois2605]

9 hours ago, Larason2 said:

There are a lot of different words for "new" Japanese swords, and they mean different things to different people. Gendaito, shinshinto, and shinsakuto are just some of them. You also hear Showa a lot, but less so Heisei or Reiwa.

 

AFAIK the ambiguity is only about gendaitō / shinsakutō which can mean different things for different people. As per Markus Sesko:

 

Quote

gendaitō (現代刀) – Lit. “modern sword.” Traditionally, the term gendaitō is applied to swords made in the traditional way from after the end of the shinshintō era, which is marked by haitōrei issued in 1876, to the of WWII. When sword production resumed in 1953, i.e. after the ban on sword production issued by the allied forces, a new term was introduced for the newly made swords, namely shinsakutō (新作刀). However, shinsakutō means as indicated “newly made sword” and as this distinction took place more than half a century ago, there is the tendency among experts and collectors to “extend” the term gendaitō and apply it also to swords made in more or less the decades after WWII. But following the latter approach, no exact definition has yet been made to tell until when the term gendaitō applies and when the term shinsakutō should be used.

 

There should be zero ambiguity about shinshintō:

 

Quote

shinshintō (新々刀) – Lit. “new new sword” or “very new sword.” Term to refer to sword made between the shintō and the haitōrei, which is from around An ́ei (安永, 1772-1781) to 1876. The start of the shinshintō era is usually equated with the fukkotō movement (復古刀), the revival of old kotō-era forging traditions, initiated by Suishinshi Masahide (水心子正秀). Masahide was namely not satisfied with the then status quo of the sword world, i.e. to remain stuck to the Ōsaka-shintō and the danger of falling into oblivion of the kotō-era forging techniques. He tried more or less single- handedly to rediscover and revive the old forging techniques of the Heian and Kamakura period and this new focus on the art of sword forging after a period of qualitative and quantitative decline was so epoch-making that the term shinshintō was introduced.

 

or Showa, Heisei and Reiwa which are nengō era names.

 

Note: Showa should not be confused with Showatō which denotes non-traditionally made swords.

 

Finally, shinsakutō:

 

Quote

shinsakutō (新作刀) – Lit. “newly made sword.” When sword production resumed in 1953, i.e. after the ban on sword production issued by the allied forces, a new term was introduced for the newly made swords, namely shinsakutō, to distinguish them from the gendaitō swords made from after the haitōrei until WWII. However, shinsakutō means as indicated “newly made sword” and as this distinction took place more than half a century ago, there is the tendency among experts and collectors to “extend” the term gendaitō and apply it also to swords made in more or less the decades after WWII. But following the latter approach, no exact definition has yet been made to tell until when the term gendaitō applies and when the term shinsakutō should be used. Incidentally, there is also another approach to distinguish between gendaitō and shinsakutō, namely in the way that as long as a contemporary smith is alive, his works are referred to as shinsakutō but after his death they “become” gendaitō.

 

[2devnul]

18 hours ago, DoTanuki yokai said:

I also asked some people who bought from komonjo if they can show a picture of the Nioiguchi, that was also not delivered. 
So i would contest your statement  

I will be happy to send more photos once I have the sword delivered. No shame in that. I would also like to hear all (including negative ones) opinions. 

Can you tell me what "Nioiguchi" is? 

 

 

11 hours ago, Larason2 said:

I have more than a few blades like this, also purchased from komonjo...

I heard a rumor (so please treat it lightly) that there are Japanese-certified smiths (we even have one in Poland, he finished apprenticeship, passed tests etc. in Japan) outside of Japan that do legit blades. Of course they don't use original Japanese Tamahagane (no access to it) but they use their 'own'. They moved outside (or were foreigners like the guy from Poland) Japan to bypass all the sword-smithing limitations and earn better cash. 

I don't know how much of that is true, but I do KNOW that the mentioned certified Polish smith is indeed producing swords in Poland. He uses modern carbon steel and asks a lot (like 4-5 times more then Komonjo) for a blade. 

 

Is the one I purchased a real Nihonto, Gendaito, Shinsakuto or a very good replica made outside of Japan by certified (or not) smith, that is still open question. I will love to hear more once I have the blade and can share more pictures (tell me what you look for). 

 

 

2 hours ago, francois2605 said:

 

AFAIK the ambiguity is only about gendaitō / shinsakutō which can mean different things for different people. As per Markus Sesko:

 

Great explanation, thank you very much for that Francois!

I guess Shinsakuto would be the right term in that case. 

[Larason2]

AFAIK, nioiguchi is the hamon line, but more importantly, is the presence of nioi or nie in the blade in that area. 

 

It's possible there's Japanese smiths working in China or some other place who make these "Komonjo specials," however, we don't know, and are unlikely to ever know where they come from. I would definitely say though that there are native Chinese smiths that have the skills to make such a blade. To get the fine hada seen, the steel has to be folded 10 times, and the steel used here is probably some kind of orishigane. I doubt you can get good nioi or nie with anything other than tamahagane though. As for the polish, it's not surprising they cut corners! I strongly suspect all these are oil quenched, which is the standard for all blades in China.

[2devnul]

Hi,

 

Sword finally arrived, I made some pictures best to my skills. What do you think? 

 

[DTM72]

8 hours ago, 2devnul said:

Hi,

 

Sword finally arrived, I made some pictures best to my skills. What do you think? 

8 hours ago, 2devnul said:

Is the one I purchased a real Nihonto, Gendaito, Shinsakuto or a very good replica made outside of Japan by certified (or not) smith, that is still open question. I will love to hear more once I have the blade and can share more pictures (tell me what you look for). 

 

I think you have alot to learn about photographing a sword blade. (No disrespect intended) Taking a photo of a highly reflective surface, to show the fine deatils of that surface, is very difficult. There are articles on here (the NMB) about how to photograph blades to capture these fine details.

 

As to your second question, I would label it as a good reproduction made outside of Japan by a smith using some Japanese forging techniques, using a mix of mill steel and oroshigane, and some decent polishing using some Japanese polishing techniques.

[NewB]

Made anywhere But in Japan is my honest opinion 

 

Y

[John C]

Adam:

Just my opinion, however I agree that the blade may not be of Japanese origin. Modern Japanese smiths need to be registered and certified; consequently there are not very many of them. Having gone through their training, apprenticeship, and certification, I would find it odd that it would not be dated as well as signed. Indeed, I believe a modern sword must be dated (this could be wrong, I just remember reading it somewhere). 

It very well could be a nice sword made in the Japanese style, however I suspect somewhere other than Japan.

 

John C.

[SteveM]

3 hours ago, John C said:

Indeed, I believe a modern sword must be dated (this could be wrong, I just remember reading it somewhere). 

 

I asked the All Japan Swordsmith Association about this some time ago, and they replied that there was no legal requirement to put the date on the sword.

[2devnul]

Hello,

 

Thank you very much everyone. I was worried that it can be a good reproduction but not Nihonto. I guess buying something from Komonjo without papers is a risk and most probably end up with outside-of-Japan sword. 

 

I have a buyer for the sword and will be able to get my money back, so not a big deal. However, lessons learned. 

 

@DTM72 I will try to polish my photo-skills, thanks! 

[DTM72]

5 hours ago, 2devnul said:

@DTM72 I will try to polish my photo-skills, thanks! 

 

I have actually had decent luck going into a completely dark room with an iPhone or Android. 

Place sword on a dark blanket or other dark, non-reflective background. (with lights on)

Turn on your camera phone and zoom-in to 2.0-2.5 x zoom.

Make sure flash is on.

Hold phone about 10 cm away from the sword surface.

Turn off the light. (may need someone to help you)

Snap lots of pictures. (you can always delete bad pics later. The bohsi (tip) is sometimes hard to photo. The first two pics are from a mid-Koto period (1400's) wakizashi, next 3 are from an early Edo period katana (1650-1660)

 

Pics below were taken following the above steps. Hope this helps!