JUYO Token Tachi - Need help and advice

[History_Geek]

Greetings Everyone!

 

I have always loved Japanese culture history, especially samurai and their weapons and armors. I have always wanted a collection of my own. 
 

I’ve been in Japan the past 2 weeks (flying back today), and after visiting a couple of sword shops, I think I’m ready to start my collection with my first sword. 
 

I’ve been in contact with the manager from Samurai Museum. They seem like a legit business that sell authentic items. I just wish they still had a physical location so I could’ve seen the items in person. 
 

I came across this beautiful NBTHK Juyo Token Tachi on their website, and can’t stop thinking about it. Their manager said he would sell it for me for $42,500; a discount from the current listed price. I have a great paying job and when it comes to investment, I don’t mind paying for items that would go up over time. 
 

what do you guys think about this item and Samurai Museum in general as a business? I will post the direct link to the item and the additional pictures and videos they sent me on Google drive. 
 

I’m a noob and have been doing my research and will continue to do more, but before consider buying this sword, I’m coming to you guys for help. 
 

is it a good investment? Long term goal is to have an amazing private collections of samurai items that I can pass down to my kids and their kids and etc. 

 

thank you and I apologize if I posted this in the wrong group! 
 

https://www.samuraim...o-token-certificate/
 

https://drive.google...HbrP6d37?usp=sharing

 

 

[mywei]

Nothing wrong with starting high!

 

However my advice would be to look at all the sites for a period of time, and research a bit more to find out what interests you and guide you in what you want your collection goals to be  i.e period, schools, particular smiths etc

 

With your budget you will have a lot of choices to make. 

 

Unju/Unji are fairly well respected Koto smiths, but what about this attracts you? And has the price you've been quoted match with other Juyo blades by this smith? These are all questions you'll need to answer before making such a decision.

 

As for whether this will be a good financial investment, who knows how the market will go in the future? Unju is considered decent I think but not a super popular school that will always have heaps of interest.

 

My 2c

[Mark S.]

When you are in a position to buy pretty much anything you want at this level, the only question left to be answered is “why” this particular blade speaks to you above all others.  I don’t mean to say this in a rude way, but I would wait until you can tell us the answer to that question instead of asking our opinion.  The NBTHK Juyo has already answered the quality/originality/importance questions… only thing left is “why” you want it.

[Rivkin]

Swords are bad investments. Dealers will tell you otherwise.

Unju is a good school, if anything its undervalued. However with the current yen rate 6 million yen is a lot of money for Unju Juyo. They are not terribly uncommon. 

The mounts are authentic but very late (the very end of Edo, less likely Meiji) with a generic 3-5 pawlonia which is quite common, of good quality.

Here is 3 mil yen one:

https://sword-auction.com/en/product/14907/as22336-刀無銘（雲次）第22回重要刀剣/

 

Generally 6 mil at a discount shop buys you decent Ichimonji Juyo or really good Aoe, but then at a premier store you might find the same blade for 12 mil, so its all relative.

[Nihonto Chicken]

One more time!  The first thousand dollars you spend on Japanese swords should be on books.  Apologies if you have indeed already perused the starter books, but I would find it difficult to drop forty large before working my way up to and through Fujishiro, as augmented by a few years of real world exposure (sword shows, etc.).  YMMV.

[History_Geek]

Thank you for all of the replies and for your inputs. I definitely appreciate it! 
 

What I love about this Tachi is definitely the amazing quality that it’s in, especially for a 700 plus years old sword. I also love how old the sword is. 
 

what I love about the Tachi is that it was pretty much the main weapon that was used before the katana took over. I also love knights and European history and to me, samurai who used the Tachi on horseback back then were pretty much the knights of Japan. 
 

I don’t know about the school and that is where I have to do more research on. If you guys have any books or sites where I can study on the different schools, I’d appreciate it. 
 

what am I a little hesitant on with this Tachi are:

 

We believe the Tsuba (handguard), Fuchi Kashira (Pommel), Menuki and Saya (scabbard) are from the late Edo period (Approximately 150 years old or older). And, we believe the Tsuka Ito is newer than that. 

 

this was from the samurai museum when I asked them if all of the sword is original. For an old sword, I feel like it would be hard to have all of the original parts, but I could be wrong and this is where I’d need your help. 
 

the price is definitely high, but that is where I need to do more comparison research. I have done it but haven’t been able to find a lot to compare the prices. 

[mywei]

I would definitely invest in books and just looking at as many swords you can before buying anything 

 

The blade is classified as a katana, not a tachi - look at the Juyo certificate.

 

Kamakura era blades would have started as tachi before being shortened.

 

It would be very rare for any koshirae to be original for a blade of this age. 

[History_Geek]

Really? I don’t speak Japanese or anything but is there any way you can show me that on the certificate so I can learn? If not, I can just try to use Google translator. 
 

Nvm, I looked at the English translated version they sent me and I see that it said, “Katana”. Should I question the shop on why they called it a Tachi instead of a katana? 
 

do you have any book recommendations for me? 
 

thank you!

[History_Geek]

Another question, the crest on the Saya, is that the crest of the school? Or just for decoration.

 

nvm, did my research and found out about the crest. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by History_Geek

[Baba Yaga]

1 hour ago, History_Geek said:

Another question, the crest on the Saya, is that the crest of the school? Or just for decoration.

 

nvm, did my research and found out about the crest. 

The crest on the Saya is about as far as YOU can get concerning information about purchasing ths sword. 

Something isn't adding up with this story. winner winner chicken dinner

[History_Geek]

Really? Can you clarify and let me know what’s not adding up for you? And this is why I’m nowhere closed to purchasing this, and wanted to reach out to you guys first for help. 
 

thank you. 

[Brian]

I think you're making all sorts of mistakes here.
You realize that you don't have to go to Japan to buy a nice Juyo Kamakura period sword for $40K+?
You seem to be in California...you should have gone to the SF sword show and found many there to look at and buy. You need far more learning before spending that sort of money.
If it were me, I'd make a plan to go to the big Japanese sword show in Vegas in January. There, you'll find good advice and plenty of swords to consider in that range.
This isn't something you buy just because it's old. And you need to learn first what is quality and what isn't. Forget original fittings of that age...not going to happen. They changed several times over the lifetime of a sword.
This isn't a "spur of the moment" decision, and since you cannot bring it back with you anyways as it needs to be deregistered...take some time and get advice and then decide what shape, style, era etc you are looking for.

[History_Geek]

Yes I have a lot of learning to do. I ordered some books to start reading and researching on. 
 

I am nowhere close to buying anything at the moment, and asking you guys for help has definitely been a great learning experience for me as well. 
 

I will be on the look out for sword shows so I can attend and learn.

[sabiji]

8 hours ago, History_Geek said:

I don’t know about the school and that is where I have to do more research on. If you guys have any books or sites where I can study on the different schools, I’d appreciate it. 

The Ukai school goes back to the brothers Kunitomo and Kuniyoshi.
Both of them, apparently also in Kyoto, forged swords for Emperor Go-Daigo and received from him the kanji "Un" (Sino-Japanese reading for cloud). 
From then on, the blacksmiths of this school used this kanji in their names (Unji, Unjo, Unju etc.). Unjo, for example, means "living in the clouds" which is a synonym for the imperial court.

Ukai itself is a place in Bizen, but Kunitomo and Kuniyoshi adopt the Yamashiro style and bring it to Bizen, influencing Osafune forge as well.

Unji is considered the best ukai smith, and the sugata of his swords often matches the elegant sugata of Yamashiro blades of the early Kamakura period, which became popular again in the late Kamakura period.
A trademark of early Ukai blades is a stained-appearing utsuri, which looks as if someone has grabbed the blade with fingers.

 

Go-Daigo slowly began to set the course to overthrow the Hojo and Kamakura Bakufu beginning in the 1320s. During these years, a conspicuous migration of swordsmiths to provinces from which Go-Daigo hoped to gain support begins.

 

After the Kemmu restoration of Go-Daigo is eliminated by Ashikaga Takauji himself and the country splits into supporters for Go-Daigo or for Ashikaga Takauji (Nanbokucho conflict), the Ukai smiths continue to make swords for the Go-Daigo faction.

This juyo dates exactly from the time of the Nanbokucho conflict and shows the typical shaping of Nanbokucho blades. Unju is an Ukai smith from the late phase of this school starting around 1350, so he is not necessarily comparable in value to smiths like Unjo or Unji from the founding phase of the school in the late Kamakura period. This may be something to consider...

[Baba Yaga]

9 hours ago, History_Geek said:

Really? Can you clarify and let me know what’s not adding up for you? And this is why I’m nowhere closed to purchasing this, and wanted to reach out to you guys first for help. 
 

thank you. 

 

You were provided good information on how to learn more before jumping. In place of asking more detailed questions you seem to wonder onto others of your own. If a season collector is willing to sharpen your questions by suggesting education (books) , your next question should be "what books"???  Many people want either free information, or they're shilling for someone. Very few want to take the time and learn. If you don't want to be taken advantage of ( you will ) I suggest learning.  

[Gakusee]

OK, let us be constructive here, dear friends:

- Vu acknowledges he is a beginner who has a lot to learn and has ordered books to read;

- Vu has taken some appropriate steps in asking around and going to dealer shops in Japan (where V has been for a couple of weeks), so V has seen in-hand swords. So, yes, V has not been to the San Fran show but in Japan given the FX rate, one can find more and even better bargains if one knows where to look; 

- It is somewhat clear that he likes 'old' swords - whether due to a fascination with history or some romantic notions or a deeper belief, we know that much from statements above. 

 

So far, so good. It is not clear whether there are other features (eg a certain tradition, or workmanship characteristics, or specific smith) that are desired, but I presume Vu has not progressed his understanding and appreciation to such a degree as to formulate a perspective. 

 

But there is no need to be aggressive or offensive.

 

In fact, this Unju sword (Nanbokucho era) ticks the 'historic' boxes, is Juyo- (ie rather highly) rated and it also comes with a tachi koshirae (most swords do not come in a tachi koshirae and to a novice, a nice itomaki is impressive for sure).

 

- Yes, it probably started life as a 'proper' tachi with a tachi side mei, but in its 650-year life is has been shortened and thus lost its signature on the tang.

- So the blade is now technically 'only' a katana. But at the same it is in tachi koshirae. One can delve further to specify (a) the overall sword (blade+koshirae) is a tachi or not or whether (b) the blade itself is only a katana. The blade (a katana blade) is in tachi koshirae so if one does not look at the tang or Juyo paper, it is a tachi to the onlooker.

- The inverted commas I have included portray my sentiment that it almost does not matter if the mei is there in terms of appreciating the workings of the sword and the craftsmanship in it (unless one is focused on collecting zaimei ubu swords, which I acknowledge usually command a premium for the state if preservation). 

- If Vu is after potential for appreciation (or at least value preservation), then he can look for ubu zaimei swords with some documented provenance. These usually retain their values and appreciate but are very rare for Kamakura and Nanbokucho. 

 

I agree with Kiril's points above: the Unkai school is a fairly decent Bizen school, very reminiscent of Aoe and probably underappreciated by people. There are some very high-quality Unkai blades. It might not be as prestigious as other Bizen schools and hence there could be a trade-off here. Indeed with the current FX rate, it is worthwhile shopping around and not jumping at the first blade that seems attractive. This is a good package (blade+koshirae = what buyers perceive as a full 'sword') but it is not cheap. I think one needs to factor a bit the Juyo paper (priced in the package) and also the koshirae. Such itomaki koshirae are not cheap. 

 

Personally, I would also go after Unsho or Unji if I could or found a decent one, as opposed to Unju because I like the better refinement of the former. Somehow the jigane and hataraki of the former two are more sophisticated and elegant. However, again we do not know if Vu is after that and he might prefer the more masculine shape of Nanbokucho blades (hence the Unju shape). Etc etc

 

 

[Jussi Ekholm]

This is just my opinion but 7M yen is greatly overpriced. I believe USD vs. Yen has shifted a lot from spring as this was listed in April for 64k USD. https://web.archive....o-token-certificate/

 

Here are some comparison items for viewing.

 

Unshō katana (mumei) - c. 2,7M yen Jūyō 55 - https://www.aoijapan...thk-55th-juyo-paper/

Unji tachi signed & dated 1327 - c.7M yen Tokubetsu Hozon (this item is absolutely wonderful historically) it seems to have sold lately, one of the most interesting blades of this school I've seen being sold online - https://eirakudo.sho...katana/detail/768547

Unji tachi (mumei) - c.2M yen Tokubetsu Hozon - https://web.archive....cn11/cn22/pg544.html

Unji tachi signed - c.2,5M yen Tokubetsu Hozon - dealer didn't sell this at auction but it was gone from their website fast where it was listed for price mentioned here: https://buyee.jp/ite.../auction/q1098056239

Unji tachi (mumei) - c.2,5M yen Jūyō 49 (koshirae) - https://www.aoijapan...th-nbthk-juyo-paper/

Unji katana (mumei) - c.8-10M yen Tokubetsu Jūyō 6 - Qualitywise probably among the best Unji that have been online sales, this has been through multiple dealers: https://www.samurai-...net/SHOP/V-1800.html

Unji katana (mumei) - c.4,5M yen Jūyō 53 (koshirae) - https://www.seiyudo.com/ka-020321.htm

Unji katana (mumei) - c.2,8M yen Jūyō 22 - Kirill linked this one earlier https://web.archive....the-22nd-juyo-token/

Unji katana (mumei) - c.2,7M yen Jūyō 21 (koshirae) - https://www.aoijapan...th-nbthk-juyo-paper/

Unji katana (mumei) - c.2,7M yen Jūyō 17 (koshirae) - https://www.aoijapan...th-nbthk-juyo-paper/

Unji katana (mumei) - c.3,5M yen Jūyō 13 - https://eirakudo.sho...katana/detail/224967

Unjū katana (mumei) - c.1,5M yen Tokubetsu Hozon - https://eirakudo.sho...katana/detail/213458

Unjū katana (mumei) - c.4,5M yen Jūyō 65 - https://katananokura.jp/SHOP/2104-K01.html

Unjū katana (mumei) - c.2,5M yen Jūyō 62 - https://web.archive.org/web/20220930200639/https://www.touken-sakata.com/刀剣一覧/刀-無銘-雲重-古刀-上作-良業物/

Unjū katana (mumei) - c.2,9M yen Jūyō 48 - https://www.aoijapan...attributed-as-ynjyu/

Unjū katana (mumei) - c.2,5M yen Jūyō 27 - https://www.aoijapan...th-nbthk-juyo-paper/

Unjū naginata-naoshi (mumei) - c.2,5M yen Jūyō 27 - https://web.archive....0/SHOP/1203-K11.html

[Brian]

Jussi, as usual, your records and stats are impeccable and oh so valuable!
Huge info there to be learned from. Well done as usual and thanks!

[Curran]

2 hours ago, Gakusee said:

OK, let us be constructive here, dear friends:

- Vu acknowledges he is a beginner who has a lot to learn and has ordered books to read;

- Vu has taken some appropriate steps in asking around and going to dealer shops in Japan (where V has been for a couple of weeks), so V has seen in-hand swords. So, yes, V has not been to the San Fran show but in Japan given the FX rate, one can find more and even better bargains if one knows where to look; 

- It is somewhat clear that he likes 'old' swords - whether due to a fascination with history or some romantic notions or a deeper belief, we know that much from statements above. 

 

So far, so good. It is not clear whether there are other features (eg a certain tradition, or workmanship characteristics, or specific smith) that are desired, but I presume Vu has not progressed his understanding and appreciation to such a degree as to formulate a perspective. 

 

But there is no need to be aggressive or offensive.

 

In fact, this Unju sword (Nanbokucho era) ticks the 'historic' boxes, is Juyo- (ie rather highly) rated and it also comes with a tachi koshirae (most swords do not come in a tachi koshirae and to a novice, a nice itomaki is impressive for sure).

 

- Yes, it probably started life as a 'proper' tachi with a tachi side mei, but in its 650-year life is has been shortened and thus lost its signature on the tang.

- So the blade is now technically 'only' a katana. But at the same it is in tachi koshirae. One can delve further to specify (a) the overall sword (blade+koshirae) is a tachi or not or whether (b) the blade itself is only a katana. The blade (a katana blade) is in tachi koshirae so if one does not look at the tang or Juyo paper, it is a tachi to the onlooker.

- The inverted commas I have included portray my sentiment that it almost does not matter if the mei is there in terms of appreciating the workings of the sword and the craftsmanship in it (unless one is focused on collecting zaimei ubu swords, which I acknowledge usually command a premium for the state if preservation). 

- If Vu is after potential for appreciation (or at least value preservation), then he can look for ubu zaimei swords with some documented provenance. These usually retain their values and appreciate but are very rare for Kamakura and Nanbokucho. 

 

I agree with Kiril's points above: the Unkai school is a fairly decent Bizen school, very reminiscent of Aoe and probably underappreciated by people. There are some very high-quality Unkai blades. It might not be as prestigious as other Bizen schools and hence there could be a trade-off here. Indeed with the current FX rate, it is worthwhile shopping around and not jumping at the first blade that seems attractive. This is a good package (blade+koshirae = what buyers perceive as a full 'sword') but it is not cheap. I think one needs to factor a bit the Juyo paper (priced in the package) and also the koshirae. Such itomaki koshirae are not cheap. 

 

Personally, I would also go after Unsho or Unji if I could or found a decent one, as opposed to Unju because I like the better refinement of the former. Somehow the jigane and hataraki of the former two are more sophisticated and elegant. However, again we do not know if Vu is after that and he might prefer the more masculine shape of Nanbokucho blades (hence the Unju shape). Etc etc

 

 

Best reply.

Jussi's reply also very fierce. Jussi, you can be my statistics quant any time.

 

[Matsunoki]

2 hours ago, Gakusee said:

a nice itomaki is impressive for sure).

Just an example of a fairly modern itomaki koshirae that on its own made over £10k. Looks a bit later than mid 19thC to me….?….but still very nice.

https://www.bonhams....-mid-19th-century-2/

[History_Geek]

I just landed back to CA from Japan but thank you for all of the responses. Definitely taking everything to heart. 
 

I love how you guys are so passionate and knowledgeable about this and I admire that. I hope to get there one day. 
 

I appreciate you guys dropping knowledge on me so I won’t be taken advantage of. Last thing I’d want is for you guys to think I’m some douche who doesn’t take this seriously. I know what it feels like to have someone who doesn’t take a hobby of mine seriously. 

[History_Geek]

2 hours ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

This is just my opinion but 7M yen is greatly overpriced. I believe USD vs. Yen has shifted a lot from spring as this was listed in April for 64k USD. https://web.archive....o-token-certificate/

 

Here are some comparison items for viewing.

 

Unshō katana (mumei) - c. 2,7M yen Jūyō 55 - https://www.aoijapan...thk-55th-juyo-paper/

Unji tachi signed & dated 1327 - c.7M yen Tokubetsu Hozon (this item is absolutely wonderful historically) it seems to have sold lately, one of the most interesting blades of this school I've seen being sold online - https://eirakudo.sho...katana/detail/768547

Unji tachi (mumei) - c.2M yen Tokubetsu Hozon - https://web.archive....cn11/cn22/pg544.html

Unji tachi signed - c.2,5M yen Tokubetsu Hozon - dealer didn't sell this at auction but it was gone from their website fast where it was listed for price mentioned here: https://buyee.jp/ite.../auction/q1098056239

Unji tachi (mumei) - c.2,5M yen Jūyō 49 (koshirae) - https://www.aoijapan...th-nbthk-juyo-paper/

Unji katana (mumei) - c.8-10M yen Tokubetsu Jūyō 6 - Qualitywise probably among the best Unji that have been online sales, this has been through multiple dealers: https://www.samurai-...net/SHOP/V-1800.html

Unji katana (mumei) - c.4,5M yen Jūyō 53 (koshirae) - https://www.seiyudo.com/ka-020321.htm

Unji katana (mumei) - c.2,8M yen Jūyō 22 - Kirill linked this one earlier https://web.archive....the-22nd-juyo-token/

Unji katana (mumei) - c.2,7M yen Jūyō 21 (koshirae) - https://www.aoijapan...th-nbthk-juyo-paper/

Unji katana (mumei) - c.2,7M yen Jūyō 17 (koshirae) - https://www.aoijapan...th-nbthk-juyo-paper/

Unji katana (mumei) - c.3,5M yen Jūyō 13 - https://eirakudo.sho...katana/detail/224967

Unjū katana (mumei) - c.1,5M yen Tokubetsu Hozon - https://eirakudo.sho...katana/detail/213458

Unjū katana (mumei) - c.4,5M yen Jūyō 65 - https://katananokura.jp/SHOP/2104-K01.html

Unjū katana (mumei) - c.2,5M yen Jūyō 62 - https://web.archive.org/web/20220930200639/https://www.touken-sakata.com/刀剣一覧/刀-無銘-雲重-古刀-上作-良業物/

Unjū katana (mumei) - c.2,9M yen Jūyō 48 - https://www.aoijapan...attributed-as-ynjyu/

Unjū katana (mumei) - c.2,5M yen Jūyō 27 - https://www.aoijapan...th-nbthk-juyo-paper/

Unjū naginata-naoshi (mumei) - c.2,5M yen Jūyō 27 - https://web.archive....0/SHOP/1203-K11.html

thank you for this! I will definitely look into it. 

[Baba Yaga]

20 minutes ago, History_Geek said:

This is just my opinion but 7M yen is greatly overpriced. I believe USD vs. Yen has shifted a lot from spring as this was listed in April for 64k USD

 

AH,,,,,Now someone is speaking business. That is 100% correct. 

[ChrisW]

If you get a chance Vu, join a local token kai and attend some meetings! There should be one in California.

[Katsujinken]

Lots of great advice in this thread. 
 

I do not think Samurai Museum’s prices are ever competitive, and I would not look there for a Juyo piece. 
 

As others have said, above $30k you have lots of great options. Since you’re in California I suggest you look up Mike Yamasaki of Tetsugendo. He will not steer you wrong in pursuit of a Juyo sword at a fair price. 

 

[History_Geek]

Thanks for the recommendation! 

[AlexiG]

8 hours ago, ChrisW said:

If you get a chance Vu, join a local token kai and attend some meetings! There should be one in California.

Indeed there is one in San Francisco with next meeting this Sunday 9/17 (Yamato school lecture). Not missing that one

Meetings (ncjsc.org)

[David Flynn]

I've checked the prices on the Samurai Museums site, and I believe they are Way over priced.   I would suggest one should compare their prices, with Aoe Art, who may not have the same but would have something comparable.

[History_Geek]

Thanks David, I will check out that website! 

[sabiji]

7 hours ago, David Flynn said:

I've checked the prices on the Samurai Museums site, and I believe they are Way over priced.   I would suggest one should compare their prices, with Aoe Art, who may not have the same but would have something comparable.

That is relative. This year I was interested in a sword at Aoi Art, which was quite fresh on offer there, and unfortunately already turned out to be reserved.

Upon further research, it turned out that exactly this sword was previously offered at the Samurai Museum - and above all: cheaper.