Well I knew it was cast!

[Spartancrest]

The one redeeming fact for this tsuba is the fact it was thrown in for free with another purchase and I have long known it is a casting.  Tiled floors, cast tsuba and fumbling fingers are a bad combination. 

- you might be able to see the sugar grain texture of the metal, which will come in handy for the super-glue to grab hold of! It was only ever going to be a wall hanger 

 

 

[Larason2]

Thanks for sharing the picture. You can see all the different colours of metal they used to cast it. Whatever metal they had at hand, and would fit in the electric arc furnace! The interior of the cast tsuba I have looks identical. 

[rkg]

Dale,

Lemonade from lemons time.... It might be worth keeping as a "don't buy one like this kids" warning or as a study piece - have you tried looking at the surface where the fractures occurred with a microscope yet?  You could also have it analyzed or put it on the grinder and see what the sparks say about the material

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

 

[ROKUJURO]

Dale,

very interesting! Sometimes scientific work just happens!

The photos do not allow a detailed look, but it seems to me that the casting technique was high-end so they could copy even such a delicate SUKASHI TSUBA. I wonder how much work was invested after the casting to make the TSUBA ready for sale. This would perhaps allow to guess the production era.

[Spartancrest]

12 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

This would perhaps allow to guess the production era.

Well I actually did "glue" it back together - but one thing is for sure this pattern is very common - however I have found one piece that was not cast or at least not cast using the same mold and more detailed, there is the possibility it is the original pattern for the copies.

Some work was done to embellish the look with gold accents on some, others are plain - one is beyond belief and should have gone back into the melt pot! 

 

 

All back together again - it is not worthy of the tsuba stand of course.

 

[Spartancrest]

Well my goodness I can't see why this one has not been snapped up already -     

[just relisted]  https://www.jauce.com/auction/x1105749901  [Now that is a spooky coincidence ]

[Larason2]

Dale, I'd say the advanced deterioration has actually improved that one! 5000 yen is still a bit much though! Now we know how to make a cast tsuba nicer; bury it in the ground for a while!

[Spartancrest]

11 hours ago, Larason2 said:

Now we know how to make a cast tsuba nicer; bury it in the ground for a while!

If only we could bury them all - permanently - what a dream! 

[Spartancrest]

   https://www.jauce.com/auction/j1107416431

Not one of mine [even though I have two of these! - hey they only cost me $7.50 each !] At least I don't have to drop mine to know how "valuable" this pattern is. 

This one could go over to the https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/46346-three-in-a-row-two-too-many/  thread and fit right in! 

 

  You might notice the bottom center has one in the V&A Museum - classy address - - but still a fake! 

[Ford Hallam]

Dale

 

The V&A example in your 'rouges gallery", how are you so certain it's a fake? I'm assuming you've not actually handled it and you're basing your judgement on this image alone. I ask as someone who's probably had more 'hands on' study of this particular collection in the past 50 years...

[Ford Hallam]

Actually Dale, looking at these examples you've culled I think there are a number of innocent victims here. Do you really think that fine nunome-zogan decoration was added recently to a cast fake? And there are others that seem perfectly legitimate to my eyes. 

 

 

[Spartancrest]

8 hours ago, Ford Hallam said:

these examples you've culled

I take offence that I "culled" anything - indeed there are many cast tsuba, several in the V&A that need to be 'culled' but presenting visual evidence can in no way be described as culling.

Next time you get to handle https://collections....sel-image=2018LD1848   https://collections..../item/O466350/tsuba/ you might do us all the favour of culling these from the V&A collection . . . there are others but these would be a good start.

As for throwing a little gold paint or even going whole hog and doing nunome on cast pieces you really need to do some research or get some new glasses because it was done all the time, see the images below where they even went to the trouble of fitting a fukurin - anything to con the buyer, then as well as now.

There may indeed be a few innocent victims in the line up, I know of at least one good utsushi but when you study the nakago-ana and they are identical you should hear alarm bells. 

Please in future show us your evidence, it seems to be totally lacking - opinions even from "experts" are not worth the paper they are written on without evidence to back them up. 

 Here is mine.

 

 

As an aside I am seriously thinking of doing a book on cast tsuba - an attempt to give the suckers an even break when buying tsuba.

Any donations to the cause greatly appreciated - No wait! Why would I need money up front to produce a book when I already did 60 books with no financial backing - Forget the donations - - bad idea. 

[Ford Hallam]

Ok Dale, I bow to your superior knowledge and insight into classical Japanese metalwork. I'm certain the collective membership will benefit from your well intentioned guidance henceforth.

 

 

[Spartancrest]

29 minutes ago, Ford Hallam said:

classical Japanese metalwork

I thought the whole point was it isn't "classical metalwork" it is cast metal work.

[Brian]

Ok guys, points made. I wouldn't want to lose either of you, as I get a huge amount of education from both, in various and different ways.
Members would (and do) love to hear from both of you.

[OceanoNox]

On 9/9/2023 at 2:45 AM, ROKUJURO said:

I wonder how much work was invested after the casting to make the TSUBA ready for sale.

Micro hardness testing through the thickness would allow to see if any decarburization occurred to be followed by some detail work.

[DoTanuki yokai]

I don’t get why identical Nakago Ana is a proof for casting while the same Nakago finish on a blade is part of the swordsmiths signature and any difference would be considered suspicious ? 

[Brian]

Because the tsuba were likely made with a standard ana, and then tagane added by whoever was fitting it. The identical punch marks would be suspicious and would likely never match 100% down to every hammer stroke?

It's not so much the ana that matches, it's the surrounding area combined with the sekigane that sometimes are part of the tsuba when it's cast, not added later.

[DoTanuki yokai]

My thought was just if this shape of the Nakago Ana  has for what ever reason a relation to the whole design it wouldn’t be a problem to make these look identical for someone who can make such a Tsuba. 

[Spartancrest]

Hi Christian, I think you are correct it would not be a problem for someone to make the nakago-ana identical but when you see a dozen or more, then you start to question how they were made. There is a long tradition of making Utsushi - this is not a direct copy but sort of getting the "feeling" of an existing pattern, a homage to a great work. A way of putting a little 'extra' touch of the personality of the new maker into an established design. A copy is not putting anything into a work it is a slavish duplication. [IMO]