katana nakago size

[Yves]

What is the normal height and width of the nakago of a uchigatana at height of where the tsuba normally is? Thanks. 

[John C]

Yves:

I'm not sure you can get a definite answer to this question. Both uchigatana and katana were designed to be held with two hands. Some handles, however, were shortened over time so the sword could be used with one hand or two. 

I would suggest searching for tachi and katana for sale (uchigatana were comparable to katana in size, however lower in quality) and try to get a sense of the average range of their handles. This would get you a starting point.

 

John C.

[Alex A]

Check out the variation here, Grey puts sizes of Hitsa-ana on his site (hole for nakago)

 

https://www.Japanese...tegory/tsuba-kodogu/

 

 

[OceanoNox]

7 hours ago, John C said:

uchigatana were comparable to katana in size, however lower in quality

Nodachi and tachi were shortened into uchigatana, but uchigatana and katana should be the same thing (if anything, katana is so broad a term that depending on the era, it's either closer to a long tanto or the longer sword we think of).

 

11 hours ago, Yves said:

What is the normal height and width of the nakago

There is a lot of variation, but I have seen the width being about 7~9mm and the height about 27~32mm. Also, you can always use copper sekigane to fit precisely to a specific sword, if the nakago ana is too big.

[John C]

1 hour ago, OceanoNox said:

but uchigatana and katana should be the same thing

Arnaud:

Thank you. I mentioned this because a search for comparing nakago would yield greater results with katana than with uchigatana. My understanding was that the sizes were comparable, however the quality of the sword was different.

John C. 

[Jacques D.]

Uchigatana was designed for one-handed use, so the nagasa is 60cm or slightly more, the kasane is thin and the nakago short.

[OceanoNox]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

Uchigatana was designed for one-handed use

From what I have read (sources below), the weapon that was used alongside the tachi, and was called katana, was closer to what we call wakizashi now, and it had no tsuba. It then became the uchigatana that changed slightly over time to us.

I forgot where exactly I got the information, but the consensus across several papers seems to be as follows:

- The katana was a short sword without tsuba thrust through the belt, alongside the tachi which was hanging. It is said to have been used during close-combat and to cut off heads;

- The katana became longer and replaced the tachi, when fighting on foot became more important;

- It was called alternatively koshigatana, uchigatana, tsubagatana.

 

生田享子, 刀装具 新・解体新書, 天夢人 (2022)

笹間良彦, 棟方武城, すぐわかる日本の甲冑・武具, 改訂版, 東京美術 (2012)

 廣井雄一, 刀姿・刀装具の様式変化―直刀から日本刀発生にいたるまで, 月刊 考古学ジャーナル (The Archeological Journal), 532 (2005) 5-9

鈴木友也, 刀装具の美と鍔, 月刊文化財, 8, No. 311 (1989) 21-29

[Alex A]

Jacques is referring to Katate-uchgatana   

 

Length varied a lot, see measurements added by Jussi.

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/18788-koto-ubu-tachi-and-katate-uchi-in-shinto-times/

 

Ps, Often fitted with Ko-Tosho/Katchushi tsuba, a rough idea of tsuba hitsu-ana size would be about 28mm x 7mm 

 

A rough idea, obviously varies but around that would be the norm (off top of head)

 

To the original question, its a bit like asking the old question how long is a piece of string, varies.. 

 

Large Katana be looking at 29, 30mm etc x 8, 9 mm etc

 

Lol

[OceanoNox]

2 hours ago, Alex A said:

Jacques is referring to Katate-uchgatana 

It was unclear in his message. Unless specified, uchigatana is the two-handed sword.

By the way, nowhere in the academical papers have I seen the word katate uchi (although I have only read a limited number).

[Alex A]

Not getting into that debate, that got sorted out in the link i provided.

 

If you prefer "single handed", im ok with that too.

 

Either way is good for me.

[Jacques D.]

What says Kokan Nagayama ?

[OceanoNox]

9 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

What says Kokan Nagayama ?

He says what you wrote above, and the sources I cited say what I wrote above (katana were initially short swords, and became longswords referred to as uchigatana).

I can also cite Prof. K. Friday (K. Friday, Samurai, warfare and the state in early medieval Japan, Routledge (2004)), who never mentions the uchigatana as being different from the katana in the way M. Nagayama does. It may be that my sources are simplifying things, it may be that the (katate) uchigatana was a fringe phenomenon that did not remain.

We can argue about this ad vitam aeternam, unless there is clear evidence why one publication should be believed above another.

[Alex A]

About the "Katate"

 

Quick explanation.

Changes in the Shape of the Japanese Sword | Japan Forward (Japan-forward.com)

 

 

Going over old ground here, plenty available with searches.

[OceanoNox]

I have read the previous forum discussion and the page from M. Nagayama's book. The article by M. Martin, while interesting, does not provide more information. It is still not clear to me (apart from M. Nagayama's book, which I haven't seen anywhere else) that there were two distinct swords at the same time: the long katana and short uchigatana. It still seems to me that the uchigatana or katana started one-handed and became two-handed.

 

(I am trying to find the plenty available, but to little avail, what with video game and sword store stuff cluttering the net, but I did find this: https://markussesko....08/11/the-wakizashi/: still no idea if katana and uchigatana were different things during mid-Muromachi).

[Alex A]

The "katate" , think of it as a foot soldiers side arm, Ashigaru. Not their main weapon, that would be Polearm etc

 

Tachi still carried by Samurai. Samurai even carried many other types of weapon.

 

I see your confusion, stuff overlapped. It was not a case of all folks calling each other and organising a mass sword swap for the new thang.

 

 

[Jacques D.]