Horikawa Kunihiro - dare I hope?

[Cuirassier]

Hi Guys
Local UK auction punt. Came with "certificate" from old school expert Bill Tagg that (in his view) this is a true original Horikawa Kunihiro wakizashi blade.

Comments?

Mark

[PNSSHOGUN]

Not even close: http://www.sho-shin..../kyoto-horikawa.html

[Cuirassier]

43 minutes ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

Not even close: http://www.sho-shin..../kyoto-horikawa.html

Thanks, but https://www.christie...m/en/lot/lot-4461867

[Geraint]

Dear Mark.

 

Well if nothing else this is good to train your eye as you search out oshigata.  Remember the period when Horikawa Kunihiro was working, look at the nakago patina, the yasurime, the placement of the mekugi ana, the relationship between that and the mei and everything else.  The Christie's lot you linked to does not indicate whether it has papers or not, remember the auction house rules on the form of words they use and what they say they mean.

 

Have to agree with John on this one but there were quite a few smiths signing this way over the years so the fact that it's not Horikawa Kunihiro does not mean that it's not a good sword.

 

Just for fun here's mine, bought when the internet was not even a thing and the only books were Sword and Same and Robinson.  I got quite excited for a bit!

 

Enjoy the search, look for papered examples and those published in Japanese texts.

 

All the best.

[Cuirassier]

I've decided to get it polished and submitted for papers. Which is my best option (polisher and where to send it) anyone? Can it be done in the UK or does it have to go to Japan?

[Jacques D.]

Don't dream too much, maybe you'll be disappointed!

[Guest Simon R]

Billy Tagg is a bit of a cheeky chappy but he's as wily as a fox.

If he thought he had something that special, it would be winging its way to Japan faster than a North Korean missile.

[Ian B3HR2UH]

Save your money Mark . It has NO chance of being by Horikawa Kunihiro.

Ian Brooks

[Guest Simon R]

Mark,

 

This is your blade's signature compared to the one in the Christies auction you gave a link to as backup for Bill Tagg's assertion.

 

It's wishful thinking, mate - they're worlds apart.

[Cuirassier]

16 minutes ago, SRDRowson said:

Mark,

 

This is your blade's signature compared to the one in the Christies auction you gave a link to as backup for Bill Tagg's assertion.

 

It's wishful thinking, mate - they're worlds apart.

I know. But it is still worth a polish. Maybe Christies have the bad un! And, TBH, I find advice amongst insults makes the advice worth zip.

[Guest Simon R]

55 minutes ago, Cuirassier said:

I know. But it is still worth a polish. Maybe Christies have the bad un! And, TBH, I find advice amongst insults makes the advice worth zip.

'Wishful thinking' wasn't intended as an insult - we've all been guilty of that in this hobby. I'm sorry if it came across that way. (I only bothered comparing the signatures because I was interested - not because I was trying to prove you wrong.)

[Cuirassier]

57 minutes ago, SRDRowson said:

'Wishful thinking' wasn't intended as an insult - we've all been guilty of that in this hobby. I'm sorry if it came across that way. (I only bothered comparing the signatures because I was interested - not because I was trying to prove you wrong.)

Not you Simon, thansk

[DDangler]

12 hours ago, SRDRowson said:

Mark,

 

This is your blade's signature compared to the one in the Christies auction you gave a link to as backup for Bill Tagg's assertion.

 

It's wishful thinking, mate - they're worlds apart.

I’m certainly no expert or even very knowledgeable (I’ve actually never heard of the smith you’re attributing this to) but the one to the right (which I believe is the Christie’s example) looks like it was added with a Dremel tool.

 

If I saw the example to the right for sale I would presume it was replicated, the one to the left has patina and doesn’t appear to have been added recently. 
 

I obviously need to learn more about this hobby!!

[Cuirassier]

12 hours ago, DDangler said:

I’m certainly no expert or even very knowledgeable (I’ve actually never heard of the smith you’re attributing this to) but the one to the right (which I believe is the Christie’s example) looks like it was added with a Dremel tool.

 

If I saw the example to the right for sale I would presume it was replicated, the one to the left has patina and doesn’t appear to have been added recently. 
 

I obviously need to learn more about this hobby!!

Thanks Joel
I came to the same conclusion; yes, Christies is on the right. The Christie's lot sold for $57,600 in 2005; now that is something I would understand people making puerile comments about. But, Christie's said the two character signature was typical for this smith. Yes, mine (on the left) has patina. So it at the very least is a decent old blade worthy of a polish. I can not find ANY such authenticated examples for Horikawa Kunihiro. So, who knows? A polish is not going to be wasted money IMHO, and......
Thanks again
Regards
Mark

[Geraint]

Dear all.

 

Just some thoughts:

 

The example from Christie's was from a well known Japanese museum collection and given the price was clearly regarded as the real deal for Horikawa Kunihiro.  If you don't yet know who this is, Joel, then you are right about the study part, he was one of the foremost smiths in the transition between Koto sword making and Shinto and trained quite a few very significant smiths.  However, he is not the only on signing this way, there are some dozens who the sword in question might be by and a polish and papers would be a great way to find out which one.  A great smith will take care that the nakago is well shaped, properly finished and has the yasurime applied to a high standard, all these are clues which should be taken into consideration quite apart from the mei, though mei placement in relation to the nakago and the mekugi ana is significant.

 

The image that Simon posted of the mei of the sword sold by Christie's has started to pixelate due to the magnification, I am sure Simon intended a direct comparison between mei and nothing more detailed.  As to the comparison of the two mei, first of all the way a mei is 'cut' is actually much more like chasing, in that no metal is removed, a triangular shaped tool is used to trace the line and every detail of the way it is cut is significant up and including the width of the tool, usually referred to as a chisel. The give away for many recent fakes is that they actually engrave the mei, i.e. cut metal out of the channel to form the kanji. 

 

Next the patina.  If you examine a shinsakuto the nakago is clean bare metal and the inside of the lines of the kanji are also clean.  Over time the nakago ages and the look of the nakago patina is important in making assessments.  The Christie's sword has had the time to develop the deep, smooth, dark patina across it's surface but also inside the kanji.  I suspect that the Christie's photograph is monotone while Mark's is colour but the colouration of the sword Mark posted looks much more recent as the rust has a reddish tone, the colour inside the kanji simply suggest that both nakago and kanji are of the same age.  

 

Mark, you have the sword in hand I assume?  What can you see of the yasurime on the nakago, and if it's not too much trouble could we see a picture of the whole blade minus the rather nice habaki?  I also wonder what the koshirae is like, just because I'm curious.

 

All the best.

 

[Cuirassier]

4 hours ago, Geraint said:

Dear all.

 

Just some thoughts:

 

The example from Christie's was from a well known Japanese museum collection and given the price was clearly regarded as the real deal for Horikawa Kunihiro.  If you don't yet know who this is, Joel, then you are right about the study part, he was one of the foremost smiths in the transition between Koto sword making and Shinto and trained quite a few very significant smiths.  However, he is not the only on signing this way, there are some dozens who the sword in question might be by and a polish and papers would be a great way to find out which one.  A great smith will take care that the nakago is well shaped, properly finished and has the yasurime applied to a high standard, all these are clues which should be taken into consideration quite apart from the mei, though mei placement in relation to the nakago and the mekugi ana is significant.

 

The image that Simon posted of the mei of the sword sold by Christie's has started to pixelate due to the magnification, I am sure Simon intended a direct comparison between mei and nothing more detailed.  As to the comparison of the two mei, first of all the way a mei is 'cut' is actually much more like chasing, in that no metal is removed, a triangular shaped tool is used to trace the line and every detail of the way it is cut is significant up and including the width of the tool, usually referred to as a chisel. The give away for many recent fakes is that they actually engrave the mei, i.e. cut metal out of the channel to form the kanji. 

 

Next the patina.  If you examine a shinsakuto the nakago is clean bare metal and the inside of the lines of the kanji are also clean.  Over time the nakago ages and the look of the nakago patina is important in making assessments.  The Christie's sword has had the time to develop the deep, smooth, dark patina across it's surface but also inside the kanji.  I suspect that the Christie's photograph is monotone while Mark's is colour but the colouration of the sword Mark posted looks much more recent as the rust has a reddish tone, the colour inside the kanji simply suggest that both nakago and kanji are of the same age.  

 

Mark, you have the sword in hand I assume?  What can you see of the yasurime on the nakago, and if it's not too much trouble could we see a picture of the whole blade minus the rather nice habaki?  I also wonder what the koshirae is like, just because I'm curious.

 

All the best.

 

Hello Geraint. Thank you. I can see the file marks on the tang in the photo I took; can you not? I will try and take the other photos soon, family permitting. Regards, Mark

[DDangler]

5 hours ago, Geraint said:

Dear all.

 

Just some thoughts:

 

The example from Christie's was from a well known Japanese museum collection and given the price was clearly regarded as the real deal for Horikawa Kunihiro.  If you don't yet know who this is, Joel, then you are right about the study part, he was one of the foremost smiths in the transition between Koto sword making and Shinto and trained quite a few very significant smiths.  However, he is not the only on signing this way, there are some dozens who the sword in question might be by and a polish and papers would be a great way to find out which one.  A great smith will take care that the nakago is well shaped, properly finished and has the yasurime applied to a high standard, all these are clues which should be taken into consideration quite apart from the mei, though mei placement in relation to the nakago and the mekugi ana is significant.

 

The image that Simon posted of the mei of the sword sold by Christie's has started to pixelate due to the magnification, I am sure Simon intended a direct comparison between mei and nothing more detailed.  As to the comparison of the two mei, first of all the way a mei is 'cut' is actually much more like chasing, in that no metal is removed, a triangular shaped tool is used to trace the line and every detail of the way it is cut is significant up and including the width of the tool, usually referred to as a chisel. The give away for many recent fakes is that they actually engrave the mei, i.e. cut metal out of the channel to form the kanji. 

 

Next the patina.  If you examine a shinsakuto the nakago is clean bare metal and the inside of the lines of the kanji are also clean.  Over time the nakago ages and the look of the nakago patina is important in making assessments.  The Christie's sword has had the time to develop the deep, smooth, dark patina across it's surface but also inside the kanji.  I suspect that the Christie's photograph is monotone while Mark's is colour but the colouration of the sword Mark posted looks much more recent as the rust has a reddish tone, the colour inside the kanji simply suggest that both nakago and kanji are of the same age.  

 

Mark, you have the sword in hand I assume?  What can you see of the yasurime on the nakago, and if it's not too much trouble could we see a picture of the whole blade minus the rather nice habaki?  I also wonder what the koshirae is like, just because I'm curious.

 

All the best.

 

Thanks for the quick lesson. I hope your efforts are worthwhile with it. It’s a beautiful piece. 

[Ed]

To reiterate what has already been said, your "kunihro" doesn't stand a snowballs chance in hell of being a legit Horikawa Kunihiro.

 

However there were many smiths who signed Kunihiro and it is possible that your sword could paper to one of them. ??

 

Here is a shoshin example of Horikawa Kunihiros mei so you can see the difference. 

 

 

[Jacques D.]

1000% false signature.

As these oshigata are from NBTHK they are not contestable.

 

 

[Guest Simon R]

14 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

1000% false signature.

As these oshigata are from NBTHK they are not contestable.

 

 

Here we go with more absolutes.

 

One: it's not a "1000% false signature" if it's a different Kunihiro.

That's like saying the 'Simon' in my signature is false, when compared to that of the singer Paul Simon.

 

Two: nothing is "not contestable" - even from the NBTHK as they have made a few balls-ups, both in the past and recently.

[Jacques D.]

21 hours ago, SRDRowson said:

Here we go with more absolutes.

 

One: it's not a "1000% false signature" if it's a different Kunihiro.

That's like saying the 'Simon' in my signature is false, when compared to that of the singer Paul Simon.

 

Two: nothing is "not contestable" - even from the NBTHK as they have made a few balls-ups, both in the past and recently.

 

What is the title of this topic ? HORIKAWA KUNIHIRO. Learn to read properly before trying to be sacarstic

[Cuirassier]

Thanks Guys. As Tony Norman is no more and no-one to replace him and been quoted 520000 JPY to polish and paper in Japan, I guess it will remain a secret!

[Mark]

520000 yen is about $3500 USD.  That is a reasonable cost for polish and paper.   Agts fee  min $500, NBTHK paper (depending on lever) $500 or more, shirasaya $500  polish $2000 (not sure blade length) habaki (if needed is extra)  equals $ 3500.   It is expensive but not unrealistic.  Sometimes if you feel strongly about a blade you need to step up and roll the dice.  That is why you do research in advance so you can be satisfied with whatever way you go. 

[Guest Simon R]

4 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

 

What is the title of this topic ? HORIKAWA KUNIHIRO. Learn to read properly before trying to be sacarstic

That is the TITLE of the thread.

It is only a false signature if the maker intended to deceive by pretending to be a different artisan - there is absolutely no evidence of that.

 

I know full well how to read - so when are you going to learn to stop being such an objectionable, arrogant little troll?

[Jussi Ekholm]

For me the financial problem is spending 520,000 yen for restoration. As I'd think "similarish" wakizashi in polish and possibly papered might be in 200,000 - 300,000 yen range. You'll find lots and lots of affordable wakizashi in polish and with papers.

[Matsunoki]

With 60 odd smiths using this kanji combination for Kunihiro, many apparently using nijimei it is totally illogical to say this is a fake signature. As has already been said, it could paper to one of the others quite legitimately. 
Mark was simply asking for opinions because he had a piece of paper saying it “could be”. The fact that it “isn’t” cannot  per se make it a 1000% fake signature. It could easily be a 1000% genuine Mei of another (good) smith……just not the “big one”.

 

 

 

[Jacques D.]

2 hours ago, SRDRowson said:

That is the TITLE of the thread.

It is only a false signature if the maker intended to deceive by pretending to be a different artisan - there is absolutely no evidence of that.

 

I know full well how to read - so when are you going to learn to stop being such an objectionable, arrogant little troll?

Who cares if it's another swordsmith? It's not a Horikawa Kunihiro, as the owner of this sword hopes. As for your attacks on NBTHK, when you have a thousandth of their knowledge, you'll be permitted to talk.  And if I'm an arrogant troll ask yourself what you can be,

[ChrisW]

Clearly this is not THE Horikawa Kunihiro. But it may be A Horikawa Kunihiro... or it might just be an outright gimei. The only way to know is to stop quibbling, get a polisher to assess and polish it if it is deemed necessary, then put it in front of the NBTHK or possibly Tanobe-Sensei. They are the best judges of what is what when it comes to nihonto; anyone claiming otherwise is a fraud or a charlatan.

And if you won't do that? Then I think you know deep down that it isn't worth being THIS excited over: you'd just be stirring the pot for other reasons.

So the old adage goes: put your money where your mouth is. I know I'd be interested in seeing what it comes back as!

[Brian]

Boys can't play nice, now I have to close this. Sigh