Tanto with shinogi and yokote

[Mark S.]

Currently on EBay, there is a mumei tanto length blade for sale that has a shinogi line as well as yokote.  As has been discussed on NMB in the past this ‘usually’ (nihonto rule - never say never or ‘always’) indicates a tanto fashioned from the end of a katana or wakizashi and wasn’t intended this way… and is considered a bit of a nihonto faux pas as tanto were not ‘made’ in this form.  What is interesting is that it has NBTHK Hozon paper.  
 

Just for discussion sake, do you believe the reasoning they papered it was just as in the case of a naginata-naoshi or a yari cut down and mounted as a tanto?  Based on previous discussions I was able to find, it just seems tanto with shinogi and yokote seems to be a more ‘egregious’ modification?  
 

https://www.ebay.com...r=artemis&media=COPY

 

If this belongs in the General Discussion area, please feel free to move.

[Franco D]

Quote

Hozon Token
1) Edo and earlier blades with correct mei, or mumei blades on which the time period, kuni and group can be identified, may receive Hozon paper.

 

http://nihontocraft....hinsa_Standards.html

 

Regards,

[vajo]

For me it looks like a cut down Katana from shinto period. 

 

Nice Hamon with a lot of activity.

 

 

 

 

[Mark S.]

What follows is a bit of a thread back in 2014 that I found, which is why I brought this subject up.  Main portion was Darcy’s response to a question:
 

“Question for everyone: Has there ever been a high quality shinogi zukuri tanto?”

 

Darcy: I haven't. I asked Bob Benson about this too and he gave the thumbs down.  Any tanto with a shinogi that is acceptable seems to be either moroha-zukuri, osoraku-zukuri or some other derivative. The yokote is bad news on a tanto. It's a curious thing about why it's so abhorrent. But it just looks like sin on its face. Since form follows function it would appear then to make the argument for the tanto as primarily a stabbing weapon, and that the yokote exists to manufacture a kissaki, which exists to top off a cutting instrument. Which is not of course breaking new ground for anyone here, but just interesting that it logically follows from something so simple.

[Brian]

Exceptions include Boy's day and mamori-gatana that have all the dimensions scaled down. This could be a cut down wakizashi, or depending on how it looks next to a short wakizashi..maybe made that way as a scaled down sword.

[Mark S.]

Snicker… snicker… Brian said “mamori”… 

 

 

[Amy]

Wow, It's really cool seeing how pieces like these, even though they deviate from the typical tanto design, get recognized with NBTHK Hozon papers.

 

Has anyone come across more blades like this recently? Are there any interesting finds or stories to share about uniquely modified Japanese swords in the past year?

 

I've recently stumbled on this (link removed by admin) store and am thinking of getting the Sanemi Shinazugawa Katana, which I like for the design, and I want to use it in my office. Do you think that such katanas are of good quality? 
 

 

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

It's a cheap chinese replica, suitable for display (from a long distance.....)

[2devnul]

5 hours ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

It's a cheap chinese replica, suitable for display (from a long distance.....)

Display... Hmmm depends on audience. I stopped appriciating even premium replicas long time ago. Good for cutting, training or messing around, but not for display. Unless your audience has no idea on how real Nihonto looks.

[Brian]

Link removed. Let's not post links to non Nihonto mass produced Chinese sword stores? We don't want you confused for one of those spam registrations that only posts links to catch web spiders and crawlers and increase a website's rankings, right?

Some of those sites go to extraordinary lengths to seed links into forums.

[Tcat]

On 5/31/2024 at 4:41 AM, Amy said:

Has anyone come across more blades like this recently? 

There are loads of blades around like this, always made from the tip end of broken swords. Avoid them. They are salvage operations in a land of very few resources - serviceable but suboptimal and with little to no artistic value.

And to your last question, no.

[ROKUJURO]

Surprizingly, it seems the NBTHK could even distinguish the smith of that blade. If I read correctly, KANEYOSHI is mentioned on the ORIGAMI.

Not surprizing is the denomination as TANTO. Whatever it was before, it is now less than 303 mm, so that makes it a TANTO. It could well have been made as short KO-WAKIZASHI originally.

[Jussi Ekholm]

You are right Jean.

 

I would think it is attributed as mumei Sendai Kaneyoshi (仙台包吉).

[GeorgeLuucas]

Interesting older discussion.

 

Why, exactly, is it that shinogi-zukuri tanto with yokote are always such low quality? I understand that the form is unattractive. And I’ve seen so many that are more ‘touristy’ than anything. 
 

But does it not stand to reason that high quality blades could be suriage to such a short length, that they’d still have some level of quality and interest? 
 

When a really nice shinogi-zukuri blade had to be shortened to such an extent. Was the sword simply scrapped rather than changed so drastically? 

All the best, 

Cheers,

-Sam 

Edited June 2 by GeorgeLuucas
Spelling: yakote -> yokote

[ROKUJURO]

TANTO which are made out of a SHINOGI-ZUKURI blade are not necessarily low quality, but there will be a good reason why a longer blade was shortened. In many cases, a fatal flaw provoked the loss of a good part of the blade, so these blades are probably of lesser quality.

The other thing is that a TANTO is mainly a stabbing weapon while WAKIZASHI or KATANA are designed for slashing blows. These need more mass in the blade which is provided by the SHINOGI-ZUKURI design.