Oops, I did it again ( cleaning surprise)

[GoldenDrachen]

Hello gentlemen

 

I dunno where to start...

Some time ago I posted tsuba for discussion here

as you can see it looks kinda weird.

It arrived this morning. I had a chance to take a closer look. Surface appears to be coated with some sort of paint..

I gave it a gentle clean, as I did the last time

Here is what I found

 

It looks like Shakudo again with inlays made of what? Shibuichi? Also initial cleaning brought up much more details.

Black stuff doesn't look like patina. 

In high places really shiny metal visible.

 

I have a feeling that this could be something good. Am I right?

 

Regards

Vitaly 

 

 

 

[Brian]

I have a feeling this one would look completely different if repatinated professionally. Looks the original surface treatment was some sort of "fake" patina and is going to have to be removed completely.
Not sure if he's up to commenting, but you best advice would obviously be from @Ford Hallam

[Spartancrest]

8 hours ago, GoldenDrachen said:

I gave it a gentle clean

Hi Vitaly, I cleaned a small tanto guard that also looked to be coated in thin "paint" + dirt - when initially clean it had a distinctive "pink" look to it, but it started to darken by itself within a week until it finally stabilized. What I am saying is just see what happens over the next few days - give it time to rest before doing anything else. 

Very nice piece by the way! 

[Larason2]

I think you removed the patina. You have to be very careful with rokusho/niage, the patina is sometimes a single molecule thick! The surface needs to be restored with a tsushima do stone or something similar, then magnolia charcoal, and repatinated with rokusho.

 

The face of the figure is indeed shibuichi. It tends to darken with time. A fringe benefit of needing to repatinate it is you can use the magnolia charcoal to restore the original colour of the figure's face, which would have been much lighter.

[GoldenDrachen]

@Brian, @Spartancrest, @Larason2 thank you so much for your replies.

This time I don't want to repatinate it. Just clean it and polish. I am sure that contrast of the shiny gold like main material and shibuichi will look perfect.

Surface of the tsuba is textured, I am not sure that stone is suitable. Polishing paste with traditional horse hair brush?

 

[Matsunoki]

20 minutes ago, GoldenDrachen said:

I am sure that contrast of the shiny gold like main material and shibuichi will look perfect.

That is absolutely NOT what the maker intended it to look like. Soft mixed metal tsuba with very few exceptions are subtly patinated and polishing them bright is a real no-no unless like Ford, you have the skills and knowledge to repatinate them correctly. You will probably ruin it. Sorry. 

[Matsunoki]

16 hours ago, GoldenDrachen said:

I have a feeling that this could be something good. Am I right?

No you are not right. This is a very modest quality Kinko tsuba…..that’s being generous. When I go back to your original post and compare it to what you’ve made it look like I understand why you use the word “oops” in the title. It looked far better before you started on it. I’m sorry to sound harsh but you clearly have a lot of learning to do regarding Kinko tsuba. As an aside, you have virtually destroyed any modest financial value that it might have had. Please…..leave things alone!

[GoldenDrachen]

5 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

I’m sorry to sound harsh but you clearly have a lot of learning to do regarding Kinko tsuba.

Thank you for your comments!

No problems at all! Being professional in some particular areas myself, I am always "kicking" newbies.

Besides since this piece is mediocre there will be no remorse when I ruin it.

 

Regards

Vitaly 

 

[Matsunoki]

5 minutes ago, GoldenDrachen said:

Besides since this piece is mediocre there will be no remorse when I ruin it.

That is a terrible attitude and very disrespectful to the maker and the item. 

[GoldenDrachen]

19 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

This is a very modest quality Kinko tsuba…..that’s being generous.

We are on the same boat of disrespect here I think.

 

[Matsunoki]

5 minutes ago, GoldenDrachen said:

We are on the same boat of disrespect here I think.

I think not. What I said is factually accurate and in no way disrespectful. I’m not the one ruining tsuba and showing a total lack of understanding.

[GoldenDrachen]

3 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

I think not. What I said is factually accurate and in no way disrespectful. I’m not the one ruining tsuba and showing a total lack of understanding.

To be honest, I don't know how to behave here ...

...Probably I will stop this unproductive  conversation. But if you feel like it please be my guest.

 

[Matsunoki]

7 minutes ago, GoldenDrachen said:

...Probably I will stop this unproductive  conversation

Why is this conversation unproductive? Do you not wish to learn?

[peterd]

Mediocre tsuba. fake Shozui Mei. now not worth restoring, ruined

[GoldenDrachen]

7 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Why is this conversation unproductive? Do you not wish to learn?

From your insults? Thank you.

[GoldenDrachen]

5 minutes ago, peterd said:

Mediocre tsuba. fake Shozui Mei. now not worth restoring, ruined

I am puzzled. Very polar opinions we have here. 

However mediocre or not, I will stick with original plan. Finish cleaning first.

 

Still very grateful for your input.

 

Regards

Vitaly 

[Matsunoki]

You do realise that what you are happily doing to this tsuba is the equivalent of taking sandpaper to a blade?

The more you say the deeper the hole you dig. 
 

[GoldenDrachen]

13 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

You do realise that what you are happily doing to this tsuba is the equivalent of taking sandpaper to a blade?

The more you say the deeper the hole you dig. 
 

Oh I see...this is the learning process you have been talking about.

[Ford Hallam]

I have to say that I feel very conflicted now. I saw this thread last night before bed and went to sleep worried I'd opened Pandora's box. I tentatively offered to help/guide in the restoration of the previous kata-kiri piece after some  careful thought on the matter. But now, before the next step has even been considered on that piece here's another completely different beastie that requires a completely different approach to restore. 

 

To write out and guide just the next relatively simple step in recovering the katakiri piece will probably take an hour or so of my time but to be blunt I'm not going to be spending time on what is starting to look like an over enthusiastic jolly/folly. I foolishly thought I could guide the recovery of the katakiri tsuba given that it had already been irreversibly 'cleaned' but i fear now that I may have created the illusion that restoration is straightforward and predictable. I must echo Colin's sentiment and say that inexperienced hands and eyes should leave these things well alone.

[GoldenDrachen]

5 minutes ago, Ford Hallam said:

I have to say that I feel very conflicted now. I saw this thread last night before bed and went to sleep worried I'd opened Pandora's box. I tentatively offered to help/guide in the restoration of the previous kata-kiri piece after some  careful thought on the matter. But now, before the next step has even been considered on that piece here's another completely different beastie that requires a completely different approach to restore. 

 

To write out and guide just the next relatively simple step in recovering the katakiri piece will probably take an hour or so of my time but to be blunt I'm not going to be spending time on what is starting to look like an over enthusiastic jolly/folly. I foolishly thought I could guide the recovery of the katakiri tsuba given that it had already been irreversibly 'cleaned' but i fear now that I may have created the illusion that restoration is straightforward and predictable. I must echo Colin's sentiment and say that inexperienced hands and eyes should leave these things well alone.

I have to admit, my position on the subject is wrong. The best way now is to retreat.

Thank you all, gentlemen.

 

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

This thread was interesting for a number of reasons. Thank you all for the forbearance shown, and for the learning process. 

[Dan tsuba]

Hey my friend Vitaly!  How are you doing?

 

I like your tsuba!  So, maybe you overcleaned it.  No big deal, it is your tsuba to do with as you want!  I also have overcleaned some of my tsuba.  Who cares!  I still appreciate them, display them, and learn from some of my mistakes.

 

Man, some of the “negative type posts” from some of the so called “experts” is ridiculous (where is an administrator or moderator when you need one)!  Good thing I never had to contend with that (yeah right, I refer you to my “tsuba casting molds?” thread!). 

 

For me, I just now pretty much stay off the forum and let the “good old boys” hash things out.  You ask to learn and ask for assistance, and you pretty much get “slammed”.  That is not fun!

 

Just my opinion!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Bazza]

This the first downvote I've ever placed.  Dan, your expressed view is a disservice to the whole ethos of collecting and studying high level artworks of a culture in many ways so much more sensitive than our own blundering efforts.  Do please keep on staying off the Forum unless you can show some real respect and maturity and earn your place here.

 

BaZZa.

 

[Brian]

Who cares?? Everyone with a decent and professional interest in Japanese art.
What a stupid thing to say.
As for negative comments....good. This is NOT a safe space. We call out stupidity here.
I suspect Vitaly is a far more mature person and will take the criticism to heart and become a better collector without taking it personally. Unlike yourself.

[Matsunoki]

34 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

For me, I just now pretty much stay off the forum a

Bye then. Don’t rush to come back. 
 

35 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

and learn from some of my mistakes.

Doesn’t sound like that to me.

36 minutes ago, Dan tsuba said:

With respect,

Don’t make me laugh

[Spartancrest]

29 minutes ago, Bazza said:

some real respect and maturity and earn your place here.

There are plenty of people who could learn some respect - Bazza you might be one.  Earn your place! Wow what a bigot!

 

21 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Don’t make me laugh

Well there are plenty of silent viewers who are laughing at you Colin!

 

Can we have a few more posts putting the boot in - it really teaches us so much!

[Matsunoki]

4 minutes ago, Spartancrest said:

Well there are plenty of silent viewers who are laughing at you Colin!

Hi Dale.That’s my first ever downvote I think (I’m not sure)….but I’m glad it was you!

I stand corrected in my choice of words but it makes me really mad as hell when I see posts that seem to say it’s perfectly ok to wreck things and “who cares” etc doubly so when any sound advise given is totally ignored.

All the best

Colin

 

[Spartancrest]

I have nothing against debate and nothing against ANYONE - this thread has gone way off the rails and I don't know why? A member wanted some help with his cleaning of a guard - but it has turned into personal attacks. I challenge any member here to say they have never made a mistake with one of their pieces and we have all learnt from those mistakes - some are brave enough to admit it and ask for help.  HELP not criticism. Please get on with the HELP not the hate.

[Brian]

Dale, this is exactly the same thing as coming here AFTER hitting a sword with sandpaper and asking "Ok..I did that, now what?"
What if it were an Umetada Myoju tsuba? Ford isn't jumping at new work, and I can't think of many real professional restorers that can fix things.
It is TOTALLY unacceptable for us to be giving advice on how to fix patinas or restore things. After all these years of us pushing the "don't work on your stuff yourself" we are still expected to be nice and help and coddle people?

Help just encourages people to do it more often, I refuse to be that forum.

[Matsunoki]

 

 

Dale, everything I said to Vitaly was factually accurate and aimed at giving him good advice re what not to do with Kinko tsuba in general and on this specific item in particular.  Japanese mixed metalwork is a subject I have some (40+ years) knowledge of. I did not direct any hate towards him. Although choosing to totally ignore it (his prerogative of course) he has since realised that that advice was sound. Hopefully that will stop him making the same mistake if he comes across a good Natsuo, Konkan, Goto or similar.

Then Dan waded in with his post (which contributed nothing constructive  to the discussion) and you gave my reply to him a downvote. Fair enough if you don’t like what I said to him……but I was not putting the boot in to Vitaly and I don’t see where I personally attacked him nor how that can be interpreted as hate.

Best.