Bought four very different blades off eBay, now in the market for a fifth - curious what you all think!

[intenex]

Hi all! Totally butt new to nihonto and super, super appreciate you all sharing so much incredible advice here over the years and keeping this place flourishing and alive! @Brian, thank you so much for making this forum and supporting it tirelessly for so many years! Saw your post about all the stress of running this thing with people using and abusing the forum so just wanted to put in a little note of thanks - this is truly an invaluable resource and if I get into this hobby seriously and start collecting seriously, definitely count me in as a supporter :).

 

I'll be honest - I definitely impulse purchased the first three swords I got on eBay with basically no information and am fully prepared for them all to be fake. That's totally cool, I paid pretty low prices for all of them so I'm happy to chalk it up to a learning experience - but I really want to get my next purchase right!

The last thing I want to get for now is a genuine in polish ideally koto or shinto katana (or ideally tachi to be honest, but those seem quite rare!), and it seems like my best bet is to get a Tokubetsu Hozon papered sword as someone who knows far too little to be able to recognize genuine swords without papers - would that be about right? Any other suggestions on how to play it as safe as possible when I'm looking for something more affordable than I'd be able to get off eBay (unless there are other dangerously priced places to buy swords with great risk involved? :))?

Anyway - for the four swords I've bought so far, I got totally lucky on the first one and ended up buying from @mdiddy! (If I'm reading things right and you're soheiantiques on eBay!)

I feel like I got a good deal on this https://www.ebay.com/itm/225726071282?nma=true&si=vBmbmCmL88FikP1wahmvlyoYXd4%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 regardless of if it's a real Sukemitsu or not (and even if it's one of the crappy later generation swordsmiths that are 'genuine' sukemitsus?) - but I do have two quick questions - 1. given that this didn't come in a shirasaya, should I just store this thing oiled and fully exposed on a display stand or really get a shirasaya made for it or something else?, and 2. does this thing have any chance of passing a NBTHK certification test in its current condition or would I definitely need it polished first?

Also, since you're here @mdiddy, thanks for offering such incredible blades! Was just curious (apologies if you've answered this elsewhere) - where do you source your blades and how do you ensure you don't lose money on selling these with no reserve auctions like this? So curious what being a seller is like for these blades and how American sellers in particular get such a huge reserve of blades!

As for the second, I definitely just impulse purchased this because the price seemed so cheap to me (before I realized so many blades are faked and that wakizashis are way cheaper than katanas and have way more supply than katanas at least on eBay and that this seller definitely seems to have no idea about these blades at all or at least certainly didn't say much [is cutting paper with a blade a valid test of anything quality wise?? that seems like his primary attestation method for the quality of these blades] - got this Tadamitsu signed wakizashi for $470 - two questions here as well. Is there anything I can do in regards to trying to authenticate this thing short of an NBTHK certification process? And would you all think this blade is at all worth attempting getting an NBTHK certificate for? https://www.ebay.com/itm/126052180799?nma=true&si=vBmbmCmL88FikP1wahmvlyoYXd4%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

And for my third blade, this is almost certainly not a legitimate wakizashi at all from what I can tell, but I also impulse purchased it because it was insanely cheap and I figured it'd be a good project blade to learn 1. how to polish this stuff (not that I'd ever do that on a genuine blade) and generally take care of it and also have a real wakizashi I can just use and play around with.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/115890040480?nma=true&si=vBmbmCmL88FikP1wahmvlyoYXd4%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

So here's the weird thing about this blade - it was found in a WWII vet's attic in an estate sale with a certainly commensurate amount of rust on it to authenticate its vintage status. It doesn't have a conventional signature by any stretch of the imagination, but has the weirdest writing on the blade itself above the habaki that's permanently rusted on lol. My wife is literally Japanese and she has no idea how to read this thing - it seems like at least two characters are some old Kanji or something, but just no idea for her.

Do you...all have any idea at all what this could possibly be etched on here and why? I'm struggling to try to figure out what the origin of this blade might possibly be - as far as I understand it, it was pretty easy for WWII vets to take home genuine swords as part of the confiscation policy of the US - did vets also commission new blades commonly, is this a total random mass produced souvenir blade of some sort, or is this actually an older blade? So confused by this and it's a fascinating mystery to a newbie like me.

 

Attached a better picture of the writing below than in the listing since I've started the polishing process a bit.

 

And finally, after getting these first few impulse purchases out of the way and deciding I wanted an actually genuinely certified in good polish daisho set of blades as my final round out for the present moment, I snapped up this mumei wakizashi yesterday with an old tokubetsu kicho token from showa22 for $750: https://www.ebay.com/itm/235146427369?nma=true&si=kyZe6zLy5UVKWme4xFNpgzFLV6U%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

It kind of blew my mind that a blade that seems like it's in a great old polish with a shirasaya in good shape with a tokubetsu kicho token paper could go this low - given that this is a mumei blade with an outdated 1975 kicho attestation, what are the odds that this is actually a solid blade likely to live up to its attestation? Would it be worth trying to get this resubmitted for a hozon paper? Is this a reasonable price to pay? It's definitely a shorter end wakizashi that seems like 38 cm of blade length, so maybe that factors into the price versus longer 50-60 cm wakizashis?

In any case - would this be safe to just oil up and store in the shirasaya and a sword bag and would that actually be preferable to leaving it unsheathed in storage on display for maintenance and preservation purposes? Being brand new to this, I've read a bunch of differing opinions here talking about how shirasayas are specially designed to be ideal for storage but also that leaving it oiled and naked on display is just as fine if not better, etc etc - would be reassuring to get an expert opinion on this specific case :). Shirasaya looks like it's in good condition?

Curious what price ranges you'd all peg for these blades too!

Finally, I'm now patiently taking a look at all papered katanas. My general reading from posts on this forum and elsewhere make me feel like kicho token attestations are pretty unreliable, especially probably for a mumei blade - does that feel about right to you all? As someone without any meaningful ability to validate authenticity on my own, would I be pretty safe sticking to Hozon and tokubetsu hozon blades, even from sketchy sellers like Komonjo? What would be the best way to validate that a NBTHK paper is authentic and attributed for the right mumei blade? Just call them up? Thankfully my wife is Japanese and 

On that note - we actually go to Japan all the time and are planning to be there another few months from October. Anyone have any recommendations on places to check out in Japan itself to find good deals on katanas and tachis actually in the country?

 

And a final question - at this point in my journey I don't care so much about the different smiths yet so much as the direct quality of the blade itself - am I correct in understanding that NBTHK grades are not relative to the reputation of a swordsmith but graded objectively so that assuming that say, if two blades were certified to the same rank as a terminal certification (as in they failed to attain a higher rank, not merely that they didn't attempt it), they could be roughly assumed to be of the same quality (not necessarily the same value)?

 

Would it be reasonable to then search for my ideal katana by filtering specifically for tokubetsu hozon papered blades as use that as my primary criteria on a quality perspective as a total newbie, or are there more effective approaches?

And on questionable tokubetsu kicho token blades - WHOOPS! Turns out literally during the writing of this post I 'accidentally' bought a fifth blade which feels extremely sketchy to me. I lowballed the seller and really didn't think they would sell for this low but turns out they accepted my offer of $1400 + $100 in shipping for this blade listed for $2000 - https://www.ebay.com/itm/354970993519. Did I make a big no no here? This is from daimyou54eb who I see garners very mixed opinions here, especially regarding non papered blades.

 

This is a mumei blade with a very old tokubetsu kicho token and he took $600 off the listing price just like that? Is there any remote possibility that this is an authentic blade? I'm especially cautious because he doesn't have anything else remotely listed close to this price with an NBHTK paper, with even another mumei kicho token katana listed for $2300 as the closest comparable: https://www.ebay.com...3:g:y0oAAOSwjQFk5Fbb

 

Is this likely a case of a blade that failed to get a Hozon paper in reauthentication and is now being sold with the hopes that someone like me will fall for the tokubetsu kicho token or would anyone actually sell a real tokubetsu kicho token katana in this condition (admittedly not the best condition, but also doesn't look bad at all!)? Or is this some other sort of scam like a fake NBTHK paper/one for a different blade?

And if there *are* places where you could feasibly get a real papered tokubetsu kicho or hozon grade katana in the $1000-3000 range that are more trustworthy and legitimate than this crazy eBay gambling I'm doing now that you all are aware of, or if any of you are selling a blade that falls into that category for that kind of price range, please let me know!

Thank you so much all!! Hoping I haven't made *too* serious of mistakes and at least I'm playing at budget price ranges for now before getting truly serious about this stuff.

[PNSSHOGUN]

Ben it is good to see such enthusiasm in a new collector, my only advice is to hold off on any more ebay blades until you have gained some more knowledge and seen good blades in person.

[mdiddy]

@intenex Welcome to the forum Ben and also welcome to the world of nihonto. As I think most on the forum will agree, nihonto are a very fulfilling area of study as well as hobby to collect and trade these swords and related items. I agree with @PNSSHOGUN that gaining knowledge will help as you study more swords and assess future purchases. You now have some swords in hand (thank you very much for your purchase from me) and they are more than enough to gain traction in exploring the details of swords that discern quality and relate to value. Your swords will partner well with a few very inexpensive books by comparison that provide a really good foundation on assessing Japanese swords. I recommend these books, a couple which are available on amazon (check the links), and quite cheap compared to the cost of a sword:

 

1. The Samurai Sword by John Yumoto: the classic entry book and a very quick read

 

2. The Connoisseur's Book of Japanese Swords by Kokan Nagayama: one of the few comprehensive books on the subject in English, this is more or less the textbook for Nihonto 101/201

 

3. Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords by Nobuo Nakahara: another rare English volume on the topic, this one includes some insights on pitfalls to avoid; sadly, looks like it is out of print (wow, when did that happen), but if you shop around you can probably find a copy. I recommend checking with @Grey Doffin to see if he might can help locate a copy for you; the link provided goes to his website.

 

Yes, a papered and polished blade will afford you an opportunity to have a Japanese sword in a state of preservation that lets you more readily appreciate all the features of these swords that set them apart. However, it is not something you have to rush into. There are lots of swords available and you have the opportunity to take your time and fine one or two that closely align with your preferences and what you want to learn about next. Maybe you want to study old koto, or flashy shinto, or shortened pole arms, or sue-koto katateuchi for one-handed use, or... the list goes on. No hurry, there is more than enough to explore in this hobby, and we are all in a state of learning.

For specific answers to the questions you asked of me, would you mind sending me an email to soheiswords@gmail.com? I can share more, but I am much faster at replying to emails than board posts. Happy to help if you are looking to learn more about these swords.

 

On another topic - @PNSSHOGUN - I owe you an email reply going on two months late. That's on me. I have lots of ideas to share and will reply soon(er or later).

[tokashikibob]

Ben,  Make plans to visit sword shops in Japan and attending a few of the sword shows here in the states ASAP!   It doesn't hurt to buy fixer uppers to learn a bit from as a catch and release type of event.   My preference after getting bitten 15 years or so ago, is buyng Nihonto with healthy blades in  good old polish that can be papered if I desire.  

[SteveM]

Regarding shops in Japan:

Ginza Chōshūya and nearby Tōken Shibata are both fairly user-friendly and easy to get to. Ginza Choshuya is a higher-end shop, while Tōken Shibata has mid range items as well as high end items. Ginza Seiyudo is also nearby. (All of these shops have websites, so Google will be your friend here).

 

Sōkendō in Harajuku/Omotesandō is probably the best sword shop in Japan, but it can be slightly intimidating to enter. I can't imagine just popping in there to window shop, except for the occasions when they have their big sales events (New Year and Spring). Their satellite shop in the Imperial Hotel may be a bit more accommodating to foreigners. Don't expect to do any treasure hunting in any of these shops. Their bargain bins generally start at around $5000. Tōken Shibata might have some for less than that (thanks to the weakened yen). 

 

Regarding your sword with the writing on it: this isn't Japanese writing. Its something that is trying to pass as "oriental", without actually being any actual Asian text. 

 

Also, you mentioned that one of your swords was purchased from one of the forum members - this may make some people hesitant to comment because its kind of bad form to comment on swords that are sold by a forum member. Anyway, welcome to the forum!

[Surfson]

Ben, I love your enthusiasm, and you have the makings of a Nihonto collector.  

 

However, I have to say, that you can do better than the pieces you have chosen.  You have spent a little over $4000, and for that amount you could get a very nice NBTHK papered (modern accepted version) or NTHK papered blade in full polish, with nice mounts (or very nice mounts if it were a wakizashi).  The comments so far have been very respectful, and reflect the fact that most of us made questionable choices early in our collecting career. I have put my honest opinions about the four blades you have bought below, trying to be kind and helpful, but have also added some suggestions for your future plans in collecting.

 

1. This looks like a genuine Japanese samurai sword in edo mounts.  Probably early shinto or perhaps late muromachi, and Bizen Sukemitsu (as it was listed) isn't a bad guess, though whether the signature is "good" is not known without papers.  You didn't pay too much for it, but you ended up with a sword that is not in particularly good polish that is not worthy of the expense of a polish and appraisal for papers (my opinion).  My advice is to study it, learn about the five schools and where Bizen fits into the early sword making, enjoy it for a while and move it along.  

 

A general comment that I hope you take to heart is that it is important to test your ability to sell a Japanese sword.  They are easy to buy, hard to sell.  If you take good photos, or recycle the ones from the listing, you should be able to sell this one on ebay for about what you paid for it.

 

2. This is signed Bizen but is not in very good polish.  As you can see, it has many ware (pronounced wah re, Japanese for forging flaws), along both sides.  Because of the ware, it is also not worthy of polish or papers. It's very hard to find treasures on ebay in general, but particularly on items coming directly from Japan. Again, my advise is to enjoy it as long as you can and then move it along.  

 

3. You know it and you said it.  This one is junk and probably not genuine.  When you see the kissaki having no curve in it (just the tip looks like a triangle), that is usually a dead giveaway of a fake.  Sell it right away or use it to cut weeds in your garden.  It is a 100 bucks well spent if it teaches you to control your reflexes in the future and don't bid on such things.  Although it was many decades ago, I too went through a phase where I bought my share of basket cases...

 

4. This is a shobu zukuri wakizashi - possibly a cut down naginata. It has the old papers attributing it to Kanebo Masatsugu (a Yamato smith).  As you know, these old papers from the 1970s are disregarded. However, since it is mumei, it doesn't really much matter, since it doesn't have a fake signature on it.  It is probably late koto, the Yamato school is possible, and is in decent polish.  You bought it from Showa22, who, along with Komonjo, should probably be viewed as a US dealer selling stock that comes straight out of Japan.  The price wasn't bad.  Again, my advice is enjoy it, study it, but don't bother to get modern papers or do anything else with it.  Then move it along.

 

The last one is a Chinese fake, please don't buy it.

 

You have received good advice so far in this thread.  Buy books and read them!  Become an avid student of NMB.  Go to shows and meet people - there are lots of friendly collectors that are happy to help a new collector.  Don't get depressed about these early purchases, most of them sold for what they are worth.  Just learn how to sell them.  If you can't get your money back out of them, you may have overpaid or have to refine your sales technique.  

 

As your taste matures, you will hopefully look for two types of blades.  

 

First, ones that have no issues and need no restoration - are in good polish, have papers, have nice mounts if that is what you like, etc. This is the best way to build a fine collection these days. Since you and your wife go to Japan, you might do some shopping at sword shops (probably best to avoid those in the Ginza and super high priced establishments elsewhere). You can comparison shop though.  Set a budget, ask to see what they have, and by the time you have visited four or five stores, you will know what you can buy for your budget.  The dollar is very strong now and you may be quite surprised. Also, if you look on the NMB "for sale" section, you can find some very nice blades in excellent condition with papers and mounts.

 

Second, eventually, you can try to find ones that are candidates for restoration. Twenty five years ago, this was easier on ebay, as there were many GI families selling their father or grandfather's sword on ebay and it was possible to find good signed shinto or shinshinto blades, and good mumei or signed koto blades, that needed restoration.  It is a thrill to find a neglected blade that has been sitting for 70 years in an attic or garage that is worthy of restoration. Even then, to do it right, one needed a good reference library to make your own estimate as to whether any signature the sword had was genuine or not.  These days, the frequency with which these candidate blades come up on ebay is dramatically low. One can still find them at Japanese sword shows such as in Florida, Chicago, San Francisco, Vegas (your home!) etc. This second approach takes more study than the first approach and I recommend that you focus your next purchases on category 1.  Even buying fully restored and papered blades is best done after significant education.

 

Most of us build our collection from the top.  To do that one should be in search of better and better pieces and only buy ones that are better than the average or the top of ones collection.  When you buy one, sell the ones at the bottom of the collection to get the funds for the next purchase.  

 

And finally, enjoy these amazing, historically important objects!

 

 

 

[Brian]

A masterfully written reply by Robert. Nothing to add, it's perfect.