Hira Zukuri Wakizashi opinions

[GeorgeLuucas]

Hello again, 

 

Welcome to another thread of me buying/rescuing an out of polish mumei sword that I found at a local gun sale. 

 

I was attracted to the hira zukuri, and also the hamon. Unfortunately the condition, chipping, and rust have obscured some detail. I struggled to get good photos of this one, so apologies for that.

 

Any opinions welcome! I’m particularly interested in opinions on its age. It’s in a ww2 leather covered saya, and some civilian fittings 

 

Nagasa = 41 cm

sori = 1 cm 

nakago = 11.5 cm 

motokasane = 6.8 mm

sakikasane = 5 mm

motohaba = 30.2 mm

sakihaba ~ 24 mm (not sure how to measure this one on hirazakuri)

 

The boshi apears to turn back along the mune and the hamon seems to reappear along the mune, which I thought was interesting. If you’d like more photos, ask and I’ll do my best.

Thanks everyone!

 

Edited August 27, 2023 by GeorgeLuucas
Spelling correction on Hira Zukuri

[GeorgeLuucas]

[GeorgeLuucas]

[Stephen]

Nice little run into, doesn't happen to me any more. 

You did well.

[GeorgeLuucas]

Forgot to add these two 

[Rivkin]

The nakago leans towards Kaga land, long kaeri suggests Soshu imitation as is mitsumune, it looks somewhat bland overall, most likely the end of Muromachi or whereabout.

[GeorgeLuucas]

13 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

The nakago leans towards Kaga land, long kaeri suggests Soshu imitation as is mitsumune, it looks somewhat bland overall, most likely the end of Muromachi or whereabout.

I think it is iorimune, but my photo did not capture it well. I’ll attach another incase I am mistaken 
 

That’s good info, and I appreciate the input, thank you! 

[Rivkin]

Possible, still can't figure out with such light... not that important, for late blades mune shape is not absolutely crucial.

[ROKUJURO]

Sam,
it is HIRA ZUKURI.

The TSUKA-ITO was probably re-done by an amateur at one time as the crossings are not all done as it should be.

Generally an interesting shape which I like! Try to find a fitting cilvilian SAYA to complete it!

[GeorgeLuucas]

55 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

Sam,
it is HIRA ZUKURI.

The TSUKA-ITO was probably re-done by an amateur at one time as the crossings are not all done as it should be.

Generally an interesting shape which I like! Try to find a fitting cilvilian SAYA to complete it!

Thank you! I made that spelling correction

 

Finding a civilian saya would be a fun search. I agree about your observation of the tsuka-ito, and some of it is fraying around the menuki (which I’m trying to identify). Thank you for your input and info!

 

Cheers,

-Sam

[vajo]

Hi Sam

short family blade bring it to war gunto. It has the typical green ito. I had twice of these over the time. Some soldiers prefer the short wakizashi blades in ww2 for different reasons. 

Nice piece and a good buy. Please care for the leather and the leather clip. If you bring back the life into the leather it will be shine deep red.

 

This was mine 

Dotanuki - Wakizashi

 

Norisada - Wakizashi

 

 

I had one more with green ito and a mumei muromachi blade but i didn't find the pictures. 

I like these waki in guto koshira very much. Good to handle and lovely in hand.

 

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

8 hours ago, GeorgeLuucas said:

around the menuki (which I’m trying to identify). Thank you for your input and info!

 

Menuki - Pine cones??

btw…..nice honest package…..I like the sugata but I doubt you’ll find a saya for it….difficult with normal shinogi zukuri blades. I’d go with @vajo and preserve the leather. You’d be amazed how much leather can respond to the correct treatment.

[GeorgeLuucas]

7 hours ago, vajo said:

Hi Sam

short family blade bring it to war gunto. It has the typical green ito. I had twice of these over the time. Some soldiers prefer the short wakizashi blades in ww2 for different reasons. 

Nice piece and a good buy. Please care for the leather and the leather clip. If you bring back the life into the leather it will be shine deep red.

 

This was mine 

Dotanuki - Wakizashi

 

Norisada - Wakizashi

 

 

I had one more with green ito and a mumei muromachi blade but i didn't find the pictures. 

I like these waki in guto koshira very much. Good to handle and lovely in hand.

 

 

 

 

 

Wow, the leather on your saya looks really nice. That looks like a great project for me to try. 

 

Do you have any recommendations on product or process to use on the leather?

 

Thanks for the info and kind words about my sword. I’m enjoying looking into other gunto wakizashis, and looking for others with green ito. 
 

Other than Nihonto, I really enjoy learning about militaria and ww2/ww1 history. So these bring-backs with older swords are particularly interesting/cool to me. 

Thanks again everyone! 

cheers,

-Sam

[Matsunoki]

20 minutes ago, GeorgeLuucas said:

Do you have any recommendations on product or process to use on the leather?

Sam….suggest you Google it. Lots of proprietary products to restore the colour and the suppleness. I’ve use a recolouring product followed by saddle soap to great effect. Sometimes more than one treatment is needed. Better to take it slowly. Make sure you leave that partial label intact…..part of its history.

[Jon]

2 hours ago, GeorgeLuucas said:

Wow, the leather on your saya looks really nice. That looks like a great project for me to try. 

 

Hi Sam lovely find, a really nice sugata, maybe worth getting a professional view on a  Polish, a Nagasa of 16 inches would keep the cost within reason. 
 

re the military leather saya cover…antique or vintage leather is one of the few materials that a novice can really go to town on and make a big difference with little risk of harm and infact can stop further damage ( I’ve don’t a few old leather projects and with care it’s fine). 
 

a few basic rules to follow:

 

Do not:

1)use any liquids on the leather especially anything water based…old leather will suck in water the moment you put it on and will irreversibly stain and damage..water is the enemy of old leather.

 

2) move the leather or try and manipulate it to become loose and supple…only leather will have lost all its natural oils or conditioners…if you move it..bend it or manipulate it it can split and break.

 

3) be tempted to clean off dirt and other contamination…see above for washing with water and manipulating…your will likely damage the leather doing either at this point.

 

what you need to do:

 

is get your leather conditioner of choice ( there are plenty of good ones and they are all much of a muchness…then apply using a clean soft cloth ( say lint free cotton)..keep applying very 12-24 hours..the leather will absorb the condition and slightly darken..keep doing this until the leather stops absorbing the conditioner..after you have done this the leather will be more supple and you can thing about moving the leather to get to any areas you could not before and repeat process.

 

At the point it’s been conditioned you can start to think about cleaning and using a leather cleaner to carefully remove contaminants..being aware of any potential damage under this….I generally recondition again after cleaning.

 

Being more of a collector of historic items instead of a purist collector of Nihonto, I would keep it with its world war 2 saya as its part of its history..and if you do go for a Polish just get a new shirasaya made as part of the polishing and preservation of the blade.

 

 

 

 

[GeorgeLuucas]

Thank you @Jon for that thoughtful and helpful advice! I think I'm going to give it a try. I've been doing a lot of research on leather conditioners and treatments for ww2 saya; and it looks like a project I can tackle

Thank you again everyone!
As always, ya'll are a big help and have given me a lot to look into and learn,
Cheers,
-Sam
 

[GeorgeLuucas]

Just figured out the menuki. They’re bell crickets (suzumushi) 

Cheers,

-Sam 

[Mark S.]

In military surplus circles, Pecard’s Leather products are highly thought of… but I would defer to others with more experience.

[Jon]

1 hour ago, Mark S. said:

Pecard’s Leather products are highly thought

Yes they do an antique leather conditioner ( they call it antique leather dressing)  it’s a good one. 

 

 

[The Blacksmith]

The best leather preservative that I have ever found is Connolly's Hide Food.

I do quite a lot of leather work, and this is by far the best IMHO. It was originally made for Rolls-Royce IIRC. Apply it, rub it in, let it absorb, and then polish with a dry cloth and in the case of your Rolls-Royce, you can sit on it in you finest clothes soon after without problems.

 

Beware of some saddle soaps, as this has been known to damage stitching.

 

 

 

 

 

[Stephen]

5 hours ago, The Blacksmith said:

The best leather preservative that I have ever found is Connolly's Hide Food.

I do quite a lot of leather work, and this is by far the best IMHO. It was originally made for Rolls-Royce IIRC. Apply it, rub it in, let it absorb, and then polish with a dry cloth and in the case of your Rolls-Royce, you can sit on it in you finest clothes soon after without problems.

 

Beware of some saddle soaps, as this has been known to damage stitching.

 

 

 

 

 

Good to know,I've brought back bone dry cracked holsters with saddle soap then lanolin. 

It's the amount of water used in saddle soap. 

I'm sure you realize you can't go rough shod on it treat it like it's your new baby's butt.

[GeorgeLuucas]

Thanks again everyone! I've got the Pecards antique leather dressing on order, and plan to take it very careful and slow. That Connoly Hide Care looks great; I've got an old saddle made in SF before great fire, and I think that might be perfect for it. The rolls royce angle is pretty cool! 

All great info and advice! Thank you again everyone!

The blade has a wild and fun hamon, and interesting koshirae. I have a hard time seeing the jihada unfortunately. Nonetheless, I am enjoying cataloging and admiring the sword

I will update when I finish the leather treatment,
Cheers,
-Sam

[vajo]

Hi George all the leather tips you get are great. Good luck with your sword and the koshirae care

[WillFalstaff]

Two in a row, with one potentially a Kamakura blade? 

That's it! I wanna know where this mysterious "gun" store is RIGHT NOW!

[GeorgeLuucas]

7 minutes ago, WillFalstaff said:

Two in a row, with one potentially a Kamakura blade? 

That's it! I wanna know where this mysterious "gun" store is RIGHT NOW!

Right?!

I'm feeling very lucky / fortunate to have found both these swords for under 1k 

Honestly though, I think I live in a dead-zone of Nihonto collectors that are in "my budget range". Seems like i'm the only one at these shows actively looking for Nihonto thats not Gunto.

That being said, I think I am done searching around locally for a bit. There were a surprising amount of nihonto at these shows, many in bad condition, and these two swords were the only ones that really sparked my interest. 

I'd really like to get into fully polished papered blades, 
Cheers,

-Sam