Jacques Posted September 16, 2009 Report Posted September 16, 2009 Hi, Are my eyes too old, or something is odd here?
Stephen Posted September 16, 2009 Report Posted September 16, 2009 well ...state what your talking about
Jacques Posted September 16, 2009 Author Report Posted September 16, 2009 Hi, It seems to me that the sword before the polish and the one after are not the same.
Gabriel L Posted September 16, 2009 Report Posted September 16, 2009 Impossible to be sure from the pics, but looks pretty close to me... bear in mind the new hadori polish, of course. I wouldn't think there was anything amiss without this thread, and I still don't think so.
Gabriel L Posted September 16, 2009 Report Posted September 16, 2009 Lining up and overlaying (using the kissaki, machi, and mekugi-ana as guides) in Photoshop yields the same sugata. Not only that, but very careful comparison of the hamon and the hadori polish yields a couple areas where it seems clear one follows the other (and note the hamon is pretty much always within the hadori). Note that in the comparison below, a well-known "nested curves" optical illusion makes it look like the swords change size - this is false, I copied and pasted without any scaling for each comparison. They are the same sword.
Jacques Posted September 17, 2009 Author Report Posted September 17, 2009 Hi, Look where is the hamon on the first (left) unpolished picture and where it can be on the colored one, if you enlarge the unpolished picture, you will see the tani of the hamon pretty close to the hasaki, it is not the case on the polished one.
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted September 17, 2009 Report Posted September 17, 2009 Here another work by the same polisher, Prof. Min Yan. Han period ring-pomelled sword for the National Museum in Peking if I'm not mistaken : http://bbs.hl365.net/viewthread.php?tid ... 5%B6%D5%AB
Gabriel L Posted September 17, 2009 Report Posted September 17, 2009 I agree that the hadori seems (from the pics) a little "generous" in the polished sword, but that doesn't mean it isn't the same sword. And the lighting of the unpolished sword makes it difficult to tell exactly what's going on in the kissaki region anyway. This is the closeup of the polished sword. With this lighting, angle, and jpeg compression, I pretty much cannot even see the actual habuchi. So I don't know what you're claiming to use as a comparison. Actually, if I look closely, I can start to convince myself that some of the shaded areas in the polished hamon could very easily be the low tani you talk about. But the quality of the photo doesn't allow for any real evidence anyway. ---------- Here you can actually see the tani, and yes they are quite close to the ha. ---------- This is in a different setting / lighting, so you may not be inclined to take it as evidence of anything, but the hamon is much clearer in this pic (and matches the original). Now if it was the opposite case, with the hamon being wider than the hadori, it would be much more likely something is wrong (and much easier to see as well).
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted September 17, 2009 Report Posted September 17, 2009 Surely not a Mukansa job, still I think an harmless effort to improve in Japanese polishing as well. Skipping the silly introduction, here you'll be able to see Min's workshop with stones and some waki in the background... http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/XpYcha0Uaf0/
drbvac Posted September 17, 2009 Report Posted September 17, 2009 All I can do is look at the photos but in themselves are quite impressive - thanks for the links Carlo!
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted September 18, 2009 Report Posted September 18, 2009 China has been *much* less lucky then Japan in preserving indigenous smithing and polishing tecniques, so any attempt to follow the ancient practices has to start from scrap. Is this that's more interesting, the attempt rather then the results. IMHO.
Bazza Posted September 18, 2009 Report Posted September 18, 2009 This is in a different setting / lighting, so you may not be inclined to take it as evidence of anything, but the hamon is much clearer in this pic (and matches the original). Now if it was the opposite case, with the hamon being wider than the hadori, it would be much more likely something is wrong (and much easier to see as well). Gabriel, Might I suggest that the hamon is, in fact, nowhere to be seen. What you call the hamon is simply the outline of the yakiba, and what appears to be the hamon is (as you know) the hadori. The hamon (as we understand it) is invisible in this lighting. The blade needs to be turned slightly in the light to "lose" the hadori and light up the nioi/nie of the hamon proper. This is (IN GENERAL) my principal objection to hadori as a style of polish. I say "in general" because I have read where some blades require hadori to present them at their best, and it is this facet of kantei that I do not yet fully understand (after 45 years!!!). All I know is from empirical evidence - I have seen many hadori polishes, yet those sashikomi polishes on my swords returning from Japan please my eye - and those of my fellow collectors here in Victoria - far more than any hadori polish I have seen over the years. A visiting polisher once said to me that "it doesn't have to be like that", but I have yet to see the proof of the pudding. Perhaps when Andrew Ickeringill comes home from Japan I might at least become wiser... Regards, Barry Thomas.
Gabriel L Posted September 18, 2009 Report Posted September 18, 2009 Hi Barry, Yes, you are correct. It's a good point, but for the purposes of this discussion I think the "negative space" of the yakiba is a good enough indicator for where the genuine hamon must be. At any rate it doesn't change my argument (and I don't hear anyone else who thinks it's a different sword). Shashikomi vs hadori is a discussion for another day.
Jacques Posted September 21, 2009 Author Report Posted September 21, 2009 Hi, A good question for Guido, This chinese polisher shows a "Masamune" on his website, as i don't read chinese i wonder if he said having polished it. http://www.dixinzhai.com/repair_show.asp?newsid=51
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted September 21, 2009 Report Posted September 21, 2009 Indeed. He usually polish chinese blades and has admitted to have not been trained in Japanese polish. Also he wasn't trying to sell the waki (or his services) on SFI but states the sword was already in China. It is becoming interesting...
Guido Posted September 21, 2009 Report Posted September 21, 2009 A good question for GuidoSince there are no comments whatsoever I don't know more than you guys do. At least the Mei is on the right side for a Kodachi (since we all know that no [shinogizukuri] Wakizashi were produced in the Kamakura period), but following that thought, the Sugata looks a little off to me, more like a substantially shortend Tachi/Katana. A "lost" Masamune in China? I don't think so ...
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted September 21, 2009 Report Posted September 21, 2009 I believe it's another gimei purchased by a chinese and given for polishing to Yan Min. I suppose it's not easy to import/export a sword in China (or simply they don't want to send the blades to Japan for whatever reason) so the residents have to rely on indigenous polishers. This Song Dynasty short sword is very interesting to me : http://www.dixinzhai.com/repair_show.asp?newsid=33
Guido Posted September 21, 2009 Report Posted September 21, 2009 Actually it's exceptionally easy to import / export swords into / from China. If they'd make it difficult they would stop the steady income from selling fakes on eBay ...
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted September 21, 2009 Report Posted September 21, 2009 Oh yes... :lol: I think it applies to import/export to Japan too as the rest of the world. Guess option 2 is the one to be applied. Maybe the owner fears his Masamune gets sequestrated by Imperial Guards because of his status of national treasure.
Jacques Posted September 21, 2009 Author Report Posted September 21, 2009 Hi, Thanks Guido, Looking at the stars before an after the name, it seems this "polisher" believes it is a real Masamune, on this site there is also a Kozuke Sukesada which let me a little bit dubious.
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted September 21, 2009 Report Posted September 21, 2009 Looking at the stars before an after the name, it seems this "polisher" believes it is a real Masamune Assumptions with no basis. Might be simply his opinion about the blade or his own polish. But maybe. on this site there is also a Kozuke Sukesada which let me a little bit dubious. Has she a Shingen Tsuba to make you thinking this ? Of course the Sukesada is most likely a Gimei too. And this means what ? That the blade that started this thread was really not the one posted as finished work ? Give thanks to the Lord he's not ruining the real ones and that chineses purchases gimei, (for now). P.S. Guido, don't worry, I'll leave him the last word after this post.
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