New Collector - Need your opinion on this piece.

[Bailey78]

[Bailey78]

honestly because of the condition of the blade i couldn't figure out why it wasn't Juyo. It's immaculate.

[mywei]

I like the boshi

Definitely worth resubmitting to shinsa in my opinion

[Bailey78]

So i was told this is a 13 century Hosho of the Yomato school area. 

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Andrew,

Here you will find care and cleaning, how to keep the sword safe:

https://nbthk-ab2.or...ord-characteristics/

The sword needs its shirasaya to be put back together. Don't put any glue on it. I have a method that is 100% easy, reliable, safe, reversible, won't do any damage to anything, won't cost more than a few cents, and won't leave a trace. I don't have the time or energy now to type out instructions but I've done it before here and maybe someone can find the post for you. Otherwise, if you'd like to call sometime I'll gladly talk you through the process.

Best, Grey 218-340-1001 US central time

[Bailey78]

17 minutes ago, Grey Doffin said:

Hi Andrew,

Here you will find care and cleaning, how to keep the sword safe:

https://nbthk-ab2.or...ord-characteristics/

The sword needs its shirasaya to be put back together. Don't put any glue on it. I have a method that is 100% easy, reliable, safe, reversible, won't do any damage to anything, won't cost more than a few cents, and won't leave a trace. I don't have the time or energy now to type out instructions but I've done it before here and maybe someone can find the post for you. Otherwise, if you'd like to call sometime I'll gladly talk you through the process.

Best, Grey 218-340-1001 US central time

Thank you Grey! I greatly appreciate that. I will call you here in a couple weeks if you don't mind. I wasn't sure about the Shirasaya if i should put it back together or not. 

[Mark S.]

1 hour ago, Grey Doffin said:

 

I have a method that is 100% easy, reliable, safe, reversible, won't do any damage to anything, won't cost more than a few cents, and won't leave a trace. I don't have the time or energy now to type out instructions but I've done it before here and maybe someone can find the post for you.

 

Found Grey’s Post… you can Search “Family Heirloom” for more discussion:

“Now, on to the scabbard and handle which need to be put back together to protect the blade. Don't use glue; again there is the risk of damage. Try this technique. Cut strips of paper about 1" wide and long enough to wrap 1 1/2 times around the scabbard. Wrap one around the scabbard about a foot below its top. Tightly wrap the paper strip with masking tape. Place the scabbard top down on a table and force the paper/tape downward towards the table. The scabbard is small diameter at the bottom and largest at the top. As you force the paper/tape towards the top of the scabbard it gets very tight and locks to 2 pieces of wood together. It may take a try or 2 to get the paper/tape where you want it but You'll get it right. Do the same 2 or 3 times further down the scabbard and you're set. When the time comes to have the scabbard properly glued the paper/tape can be slid back down and no tape residue will be left on the wood. Do the same with the handle, which is smallest at the top and largest where it meets the scabbard.”

[Bailey78]

9 minutes ago, Mark S. said:

Found Grey’s Post… you can Search “Family Heirloom” for more discussion:

“Now, on to the scabbard and handle which need to be put back together to protect the blade. Don't use glue; again there is the risk of damage. Try this technique. Cut strips of paper about 1" wide and long enough to wrap 1 1/2 times around the scabbard. Wrap one around the scabbard about a foot below its top. Tightly wrap the paper strip with masking tape. Place the scabbard top down on a table and force the paper/tape downward towards the table. The scabbard is small diameter at the bottom and largest at the top. As you force the paper/tape towards the top of the scabbard it gets very tight and locks to 2 pieces of wood together. It may take a try or 2 to get the paper/tape where you want it but You'll get it right. Do the same 2 or 3 times further down the scabbard and you're set. When the time comes to have the scabbard properly glued the paper/tape can be slid back down and no tape residue will be left on the wood. Do the same with the handle, which is smallest at the top and largest where it meets the scabbard.”

Awesome! thank you greatly!

 

[NewB]

Paper made shirasaya is probably a good option also IMHO barring the suggested repair of the split doesn't go as planned.

 

The wiggle of the blade of a split Saya as in your case could have many negative impacts on what seems to be recent polish and well taken care of blade with one of the controversial papers issued at the time (my favorite)

 

I'd pursue a TokuHo in the same session at Hozon and then seek a way for a professional evaluation whether the blade is Juyo worthy. Regardless of all above, I really like it and I hope you get to enjoy it as much as most of us are even from the limited photos (well done btw)

 

J.

[Rivkin]

The hada is pure masame, but lacks chikei and very uniform. Hamon does not show nie except at a few specific angles where its obvious it has ko nie. Boshi is very detailed but at the same time not very bright.

That really looks like Sendai Kunikane. Quite a few were papered in 1970s as Hosho, some even with sayagaki.

That's probably your worst case. The best is yes, Hosho or maybe Shikkakke if the hamon is not pure suguha but has strong notare.

But I would be betting on Sendai.

[Jacques D.]

Mesureaments (nagasa, sori, motohaba, motokasane) + a picture of the nakago without habaki please

[Stephen]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

without habaki please

Looks like it may need a cleaning under there too

[Bailey78]

Sorry i was in posting jail because i've posted too much yesterday. When i get home i will send new pictures of the nakago 

[Bailey78]

Blade length: 68.0cm or 26.77in. Sori: 2.0cm or 0.78in. Mekugi: 2 Width at ha-machi: 2.82cm or 1.1lin. Width at kissaki: 1.90cm or 0.74in. Kasane: 0.63cm or 0.24in

[Stephen]

Blade length: 68.0cm or 26.77in. Sori: 2.0cm or 0.78in. Mekugi: 2 Width at ha-machi: 2.82cm or 1.1lin. Width at kissaki: 1.90cm or 0.74in. Kasane: 0.63cm or 0.24in

 

For those like me who have dark themes 

[Bailey78]

[Bailey78]

[Bailey78]

[Bailey78]

[Bailey78]

8 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Mesureaments (nagasa, sori, motohaba, motokasane) + a picture of the nakago without habaki please

posted for you

 

[Jacques D.]

In my opinion, and given the measurements given, this sword is not from the 13th century but later and it's ubu. I have strong doubts as to whether it belongs to the Hosho school, because in that case the yasurime should be higaki, but here they are kiri.

I won't go into the subject of the hada because you can't see anything in the photos (same for the hamon), but I'm not sure it's totally in masame, especially in the part towards the nakago.
 

[Jussi Ekholm]

I am sorry if my message came out bit puzzling, I just didn't want to ruin the fun for others as I looked at the sayagaki and I admit it altered my view.

 

I admit I am having difficulties in judging if the sword is shortened or like Jacques said above in original length. At first I admit I was thinking Muromachi for the sword. I am not very good at judging the sword by just qualities and activities in the blade, however strong masame if often (in the best scenario) pointing to Hoshō attribution if the sword is seen being appropriate age. However as the sword is 68 cm in the current form and there are no holes near bottom of the tang, if it is shortened then it would have been long tachi in original form. It is bit difficult but trying to imagine how the sword would be with extra 15 - 20 cm in length, and it is quite narrow blade in width.

 

Judging from the pictures your sword seems to have good amount of masame. I know there are masame hada fans that know lot about it, unfortunately I am not among them. However as Kirill pointed out there is a huge financial difference depending on what attribution the sword gets as it is mumei. I think Kirill gave good examples, you get Hoshō attribution you would be very happy, you get something like Sendai Kunikane for mumei blade, that is large financial gap even though the sword itself remains the same.

 

It is good thing you have the old "blue" papers as they were at the time marking good quality. Interesting sword and thanks for posting.

[Bailey78]

1 hour ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

I am sorry if my message came out bit puzzling, I just didn't want to ruin the fun for others as I looked at the sayagaki and I admit it altered my view.

 

I admit I am having difficulties in judging if the sword is shortened or like Jacques said above in original length. At first I admit I was thinking Muromachi for the sword. I am not very good at judging the sword by just qualities and activities in the blade, however strong masame if often (in the best scenario) pointing to Hoshō attribution if the sword is seen being appropriate age. However as the sword is 68 cm in the current form and there are no holes near bottom of the tang, if it is shortened then it would have been long tachi in original form. It is bit difficult but trying to imagine how the sword would be with extra 15 - 20 cm in length, and it is quite narrow blade in width.

 

Judging from the pictures your sword seems to have good amount of masame. I know there are masame hada fans that know lot about it, unfortunately I am not among them. However as Kirill pointed out there is a huge financial difference depending on what attribution the sword gets as it is mumei. I think Kirill gave good examples, you get Hoshō attribution you would be very happy, you get something like Sendai Kunikane for mumei blade, that is large financial gap even though the sword itself remains the same.

 

It is good thing you have the old "blue" papers as they were at the time marking good quality. Interesting sword and thanks for posting.

Thank you. Would be interesting to see what it comes back as. Would i send the blue paper with it to NBTHK or let them judge not based off previous certificate?

[rematron]

My understanding is that they will completely ignore papers submitted with an item.

[Rivkin]

I think one of the greatest problems of kantei books is they give you a clear cut, foolproof certainty example where if you put together all the features its got to be Kanemitsu and no one else, and that's also the reason why oshigata is sufficient for such purposes. In most cases kantei is however probabilistic in the sense that the features are not exclusive to attribution, but are more or less common.

So, Hosho hamon tends to be on a narrow side, while Sendai is generally wider.

Hosho boshi tends to have shortish kaeri (on tanto there is very often no kaeri), Sendai kaeri can be longer and more detailed.

As most shinto nie Sendai nie tends to be of the same size, Hosho varies within the blade.

Hosho work tends to be more non-uniform, the width of masame varies, Sendai is very uniform.

Hosho hamon tends to have a bit larger and more bright nie, with more variability within so that nijuba and hotsure are very prominent and wide in places, Sendai hamon is a bit more bluish and has thinner hotsure.

Some Hosho lineages practice a mixture of masame with Awataguchi level very fine itame, there are some Sendai smiths who could do that as well.

Both schools practiced either straight or a bit endulating, sinusoidal masame.

 

Generally sue Hosho (i.e. Muromachi Hosho) is quite uncommon and quality wise is very similar to Hosho, usually judged as such on the basis of sugata alone.

 

[Bailey78]

1 hour ago, Rivkin said:

I think one of the greatest problems of kantei books is they give you a clear cut, foolproof certainty example where if you put together all the features its got to be Kanemitsu and no one else, and that's also the reason why oshigata is sufficient for such purposes. In most cases kantei is however probabilistic in the sense that the features are not exclusive to attribution, but are more or less common.

So, Hosho hamon tends to be on a narrow side, while Sendai is generally wider.

Hosho boshi tends to have shortish kaeri (on tanto there is very often no kaeri), Sendai kaeri can be longer and more detailed.

As most shinto nie Sendai nie tends to be of the same size, Hosho varies within the blade.

Hosho work tends to be more non-uniform, the width of masame varies, Sendai is very uniform.

Hosho hamon tends to have a bit larger and more bright nie, with more variability within so that nijuba and hotsure are very prominent and wide in places, Sendai hamon is a bit more bluish and has thinner hotsure.

Some Hosho lineages practice a mixture of masame with Awataguchi level very fine itame, there are some Sendai smiths who could do that as well.

Both schools practiced either straight or a bit endulating, sinusoidal masame.

 

Generally sue Hosho (i.e. Muromachi Hosho) is quite uncommon and quality wise is very similar to Hosho, usually judged as such on the basis of sugata alone.

 

 

This is very interesting. Thank you for the information. From what i can tell it has traits of both as you describe it. 

[Bailey78]

Is there anyone within reasonable driving distance from Colorado that I could take it to and have them evaluate it? I'm trying to decide if it's really worth sending in again for certification.

[AlexiG]

I will stick my neck out and suggest you send it for shinsa. I would without hesitation if I thought I had Hosho blade, but that is me  I have a blade in the Sept shinsa and plan to send another one in Dec and neither is as valuable as a Hosho school blade. But it does come with costs, so up to you.

 

I have a blade that had one attribution from Tokubetsu Kitcho Token (Yamato School-Nobuyoshi) and another form a recent NBTHK shinsa (Kongobyoe School). As mentioned in a previous post, the older Kitcho attributions are not deemed very reliable these days.

 

Congrats on the nice looking blade! I like Yamato den swords a lot!

 

Alexi

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Andrew,

Don't know what you consider reasonable for a drive but there is the show in Las Vegas next January. There you can get opinions on your sword.

Grey

[Bailey78]

30 minutes ago, AlexiG said:

I will stick my neck out and suggest you send it for shinsa. I would without hesitation if I thought I had Hosho blade, but that is me  I have a blade in the Sept shinsa and plan to send another one in Dec and neither is as valuable as a Hosho school blade. But it does come with costs, so up to you.

 

I have a blade that had one attribution from Tokubetsu Kitcho Token (Yamato School-Nobuyoshi) and another form a recent NBTHK shinsa (Kongobyoe School). As mentioned in a previous post, the older Kitcho attributions are not deemed very reliable these days.

 

Congrats on the nice looking blade! I like Yamato den swords a lot!

 

Alexi

Thank you Alexi. I appreciate the sound advice. I agree i think it's worth sending in. Not worried about the price, more worried about being disappointed with the results. HAHA