Signed Shingen-Tsuba

[Ludolf Richter]

Hi all,there is a Shingen-Tsuba on Ebay.de,signed Kofu ju Nobuharu.I remember to have read,that there are no known ones with a signature.By the way the famous Takeda Shingen was also known as Nobuharu.Is that Ebay-piece Gimei or what else,when there were no signed ones from the old days to be faked?Ludolf

[Rich T]

Hi all,there is a Shingen-Tsuba on Ebay.de,signed Kofu ju Nobuharu.I remember to have read,that there are no known ones with a signature.By the way the famous Takeda Shingen was also known as Nobuharu.Is that Ebay-piece Gimei or what else,when there were no signed ones from the old days to be faked?Ludolf

 

Hi Ludolf, I think the "Shingen" tsuba suffers from fakes almost more than any other tsuba, and in fact I think it was Torigoye who noted that there were all just trinkets and not worth anything. I have never seen a Shingen tsuba with great base iron, but that does not mean they don't exist of course. Can anyone show an example of a high quality Shingen tsuba ?

 

Cheers

 

Rich

[IanB]

Rich, Years ago I visited the Japan Sword Company's shop and was shown a really large nodachi in shirasaya (if memory serves about 8' long) the tsuba of which was of the shingen type, in iron, and about 10" across. I remember thinking it most have nearly doubled the weight of the sword. If there were other fittings I do not know, since I wasn't shown any. Almost certainly a votive thing but interesting.

Ian Bottomley.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

You can find a nice Shingen tsuba on this page.

 

http://www.ricecracker.com/japanese_swo ... apage5.htm

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Richard,

 

I think it was Torigoye who noted that there were all just trinkets and not worth anything.

 

This sort of pronouncement ( so common from Torigoe) is exactly why I find his opinion so inflated and suspect. The skill and patience required to create these types of tsuba are surely worth a fairer appraisal than the dismissive comments of a man who's bias toward only unadorned iron plate is self evident. He didn't like them so therefore they're rubbish.

 

The serious study of aesthetics attempts, at least in part, to educate our personal preferences and to help us perceive and appreciate qualities beyond our personal taste. Toriqoe frequently seems unwilling, or unable to do this. The danger there is that his views are informing a generation of students who's study material is limited to what is available in English.

 

The whole point of a "Shingen" style tsuba has nothing at all to do with the underlying plate. It's a woven design in brass ( and sometimes copper too)! As such, these guards, when well done, are quite exceptional pieces of craft. To dismiss them as worthless trinkets is nothing short of small minded arrogance. In addition to which, it seems they were actually quite popular with real warriors so they can't be dismissed as not being "warrior taste". Unless we accept Torigoe as the final arbiter of that aesthetic. Takeda Shingen would turn in his grave

 

...it's a very dry Chenin Blanc tonight, cheers! :D

 

p.s. I wasn't having a go at you, Richard ...this was merely another instalment in my long running campaign of attrition against the unsubstantiated pontifications of ST Torigoe.

 

another "worthless trinket" , this one from the Chicago Field museum. Clearly absolute rubbish as it doesn't even have any iron plate...however poor

[Rich T]

Thanks for that image Ford and LOL yes, I was waiting patiently for your anti Torigoye barrage hahahahahahaha, sorry, I may have set that up a little:clap:

 

That Field Museum tsuba does indeed look like a nice specimen. I am sorry but no amount of dread locks and or platting will make the one on Ricecracker look anymore to me that a nasty piece of fluff. That of course is just my opinion, and a personal taste, regardless of how much work went into it.

 

There is obvious skill and the base plate on the Field Museum tsuba looks very interesting. I would like to see a larger image of that.

 

It's an interesting read this thread, I am not sure who except the Ainu would use a tsuba like this as it come off as too crafty for a Samurai's aesthetic but then I was never there, and can only form my own judgements.

 

It's interesting that the circles I travel in in Japan, now seem to have less and less to do with Torigoye, and even to an extent Sasano, with Wakayama still thought of with merit.

 

Aggghhhhhhh. How I love this stuff :D

 

Cheers

 

Rich

[Ford Hallam]

hope I didn't keep you waiting for too long then

 

I must agree with you about the "Ricecracker" example, I don't like it much myself. It does seem a bit OTT

 

I have seen some truly stunning examples mounted on very fine koshirae, and very obviously warrior,s swords. Some of the "weaving" leaves one in mind of very refined basketry. Perhaps there's a link to the accoutrements of the tea ceremony. Certainly the appearance of the first examples of Shingen tsuba coincides with the rise of the "cult of tea"

 

What you say about Torigoe being largely relegated to "old thinking" in Japan is exactly my experience also. In fact a few people I know barely knew of him... I get the impression Sasano is still regarded with some affection, if not as an absolute authority any more.

[Jean]

http://www.owazamono.com/TB-010.html#0

[docliss]

Am I missing something here? Since Shingen tsuba are supposedly made by the decoration of pre-existing, sukashi, iron tsuba with woven wire, what is to prevent this original tsuba from being a signed one? Presumably Nobuharu was the maker of such a tsuba?

 

Incidentally, is not Jean's posted example one of the Mukade rather than the Shingen style - not at all the same thing.

 

Regards, John L.

[Ford Hallam]

I have to agree with the good Doctor

 

I think the distinction ought to made between the Mukade style and Shingen types.

 

Mukade means centipede (thanks Pete ) in Japanese and is the "familiar" of Bishamonten, the deity of war.

 

While it's true that some, older iron guards were later decorated with wire woven work, an indication of the popularity of the fashion perhaps, many of the finest examples appear to have been conceived of as woven works from the start. Some of these actually have no real plate at all. The seppa-dai and mimi are joined by means of the woven structure. I think the example I posted is just such a type.

[Pete Klein]

I believe it is 'centipede', not caterpillar, which is an arthropod instead of the larval form of a member of the order Lepidoptera (the insect order comprising butterflies and moths).

[Ford Hallam]

oops! ...sorry, Quite correct Pete. Amended.

[Pete Klein]

Ha - ha -- this is about the only thing I've ever done with my minor in Entomology! LOL!

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Extracted from Japanese swords mounts By Helen C. Gunsaulus (Field museum anthropological series Volume XVI).

 

 

[IanB]

Gents, There is a link between Shigen and mukade. Takeda Shingen had the device of a writhing centipede on the flags of his battlefield runners.

Ian Bottomley

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

another "worthless trinket" , this one from the Chicago Field museum. Clearly absolute rubbish as it doesn't even have any iron plate...however poor

 

 

According the description made by the museum this tsuba is made with a thin iron core.

 

http://www.fieldmuseum.org/research_Col ... com10.html

[reinhard]

Ludolf,

 

Returning to your question for a second: The signature reads: "Ko-FU no ju Nobuharu". "FU" representing a newer system of prefectures established at the very end of Edo times. Therefore this particular mei cannot predate late Edo period. Takeda Shingen lived in Kai province and if there were any surviving examples from those times, they would have been signed in another way. Since Takeda Shingen's personality was a myth from the start and was later associated with mukade tsuba for some reasons, many of the mukade tsuba were tried to bring into relation with him later, mostly by dealers.

 

As for Mr.Torigoye's estimate: I agree with him. None of the so-called "Shingen-tsuba" display any artistic qualities. They are just neat at the most and not really worth collecting.

 

reinhard

[Ford Hallam]

According the description made by the museum this tsuba is made with a thin iron core.

 

Jacques, this may well be the case but as we can't actually see the iron core it may as well be cardboard so I believe my point remains.

 

As for Mr.Torigoye's estimate: I agree with him. None of the so-called "Shingen-tsuba" display any artistic qualities. They are just neat at the most and not really worth collecting.

 

Reinhard, here I have to object on the grounds that this is purely a subjective judgement. Has Mr Torigoe ever elaborated on what his criteria for "artistic qualities" actually are? I don't believe so....as such, we're yet again left with his personal taste... with no further qualification. To simply agree with him merely puts your opinion in the same category.

 

As for " not really worth collecting" ...obviously this is yet again merely his opinion. Others may find much that is of interest and beautiful in some examples of this type of guard.

 

ford

[reinhard]

Ford,

 

I agree with Mr.Torigoye not because of his reputation. You should know me better by now. My conviction was established a long time before I read his book. Nevertheless it is quite stunning to see a man dedicated to art in the true sense of the word, a lover of Natsuo and his sophisticated ways, breaking a lance for neat and meaningless "Shingen tsuba". Go ahead, I'm still willing to learn.

 

reinhard

[Nobody]

Ludolf,

 

Returning to your question for a second: The signature reads: "Ko-FU no ju Nobuharu". "FU" representing a newer system of prefectures established at the very end of Edo times. Therefore this particular mei cannot predate late Edo period. Takeda Shingen lived in Kai province and if there were any surviving examples from those times, they would have been signed in another way.

......

“FU” of “Kofu (甲府)” is different from “FU” based on the newer system of prefectures established in 19th century. The naming “Kofu” has been used since early 16th century, and it means the provincial capital of Kai no kuni (甲斐國).

 

But anyway, Takeda Shingen has nothing to do with Shingen-tsuba. The naming of Shingen-tsuba was derived from Shingen-bukuro (a cloth pouch; the origin of its naming is unknown) because of their resemblance in rim design.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Jacques, this may well be the case but as we can't actually see the iron core it may as well be cardboard so I believe my point remains.

 

Ford, how do you detect a sanmai Tsuba? However you can be right but the museum experts have an advantage, They have the tsuba and i think they know that they say.

[Brian]

Jacques,

I think Ford was not challenging the construction of the core, merely noting that since it isn't outwardly visible, it play no aesthetic part in the visual appreciation of this tsuba. Which was his point.

Fascinating debate anyways, I have not seen this much info on these tsuba anywhere before.

 

Brian

[docliss]

What a fascinating and erudite thread this has been - NMB at its very best. John L.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Brian, maybe i'm wrong but it seems we can see iron just around the sekigane, If i'm right that means that all Shingen tsuba are made on a iron base. That could be an important kantei point.

[Ford Hallam]

Reinhard

 

I appreciate your very kind words...I almost blushed

 

Of course I'm not suggesting the generic group we refer to as "Shingen" are exemplars of the highest expressions of fine art in metal. I was merely trying to rehabilitate their reputation and provoke a more balance appraisal. There are very tawdry examples of tsuba to be found in every conceivable category just as there are, I maintain, perfectly fine examples to found that are representative of the finest qualities that that particular type has to offer.

 

As an analogy we could compare Western painting. In some circles there still lingers a feeling that a painting in oils is superior to a painting, otherwise qualitatively similar, that is done in acrylic. This is a bias. It's true that oils have qualities that acrylics can't match, just as the iron of a Owari masterpiece has it's qualities that woven brass can't attain but the acrylic also has it's own, distinct qualities and these are put to good use by those artists who favour that medium. I would suggest that in the hands of a sensitive and skilled artist the Shingen style of guard has given rise to some lovely examples of metal art also.

 

Admittedly, this style isn't to everyone's taste. Richard put it quite well when he suggested it seemed to "crafty". But perhaps this is a contemporary prejudice that owes more to the present attitudes that many fine art connoisseurs express in relation to crafts in general. Pre modern Japan certainly made no such artificial distinction between art and craft but with the modernisation of Japan came huge reappraisal of traditional values with proponents on each end of the debates.

 

People like Soetsu Yanagi, the foremost proponent of the mingei , I believe, would have found the Shingen tsuba to express many very valid and evocative aspects of traditional Japanese aesthetics. Admittedly, the formulation of the Mingei credo was in response to fears that traditional aesthetic values might be lost but it remains true that the qualities that they identified were an extremely significant part of the Japanese experience. I would go so far to suggest that this particular sensibility may well be at the heart of all Japanese aesthetics, concerned as it is with humility, unpretentiousness, honesty and an appreciation of the gentle effects of time.

 

In that context I have found some examples of the Shingen and Mukade tsuba to be quite satisfying and expressive.se aesthetics. Samurai taste was never entirely divorced for the sensibilities of the general population and as I suggested earlier, the aesthetics of the tea ceremony may well have played a major role in the popularisation of these woven guards.

 

I believe Torigoe's attitude was somewhat more elitist. He, very clearly, was engaged in a formulation of his own conception of "correct" warrior culture and taste. This may well have been a rearguard action in the wake of the abandonment of Bushido and spurred on by feelings of nostalgia and perhaps just a little bit of a superior attitude. The need to identify some sort of mysterious and profound art, the last vestiges of a noble past etc, can be well understood in the context of the times but, as with any mythologising, it distorts the past.

 

I hope I've at least rehabilitated my own standing in your eyes with this attempted defence of my indefensible position

 

regards,

 

Ford

...failing that I'll just have to hope I can find an example at the DTI that "speaks to you" and wins your heart :D

 

Jacques,

 

as Brian points out, my comment was with regard to the aesthetic judgement of these tsuba. The discussion of the various forms they take is an entirely different matter. The page from Helen Gunlasus's book makes that clear. As a matter of fact, I have examined at least one mid Edo period guard that was comprised of a seppa-dai that was "suspended" within the mimi and the "spokes" of wire that held it in this position were then woven around. The result was a very sturdy, yet resilient mat. This flexibility may even be found to be more practical that a pierced guard that might be somewhat more unyielding. It would undoubtably be more fiddly to make a tsuba this way so it would be reasonable to use a stabilising plate as the core. The core would be effectively hidden and the woven effect complete. We could speculate that the guards without the inner plate are the "truer", purist versions and the tsuba with an inclusion of the plate represent an easier approach. I think it safe to suggest that the more complicated construction method ( ie; without an inner plate) would have been regarded as being more worthy of admiration. This appreciation of the difficulty and complexity of manufacture, particularly in something apparently so humble, is well worth noting as an important aspect of Japanese aesthetics.

 

it seems we can see iron just around the sekigane, If i'm right that means that all Shingen tsuba are made on a iron base.

 

This statement doesn't follow at all, I'm afraid. Just because this example may have an iron core it doesn't tell us anything other that that fact. You can't extend that observation, of one tsuba, to cover all other examples. This is a fundamental failure of logic...sorry

 

...and this comment I made;

Clearly absolute rubbish as it doesn't even have any iron plate...however poor

was made merely as a joke in any case. This is something we English like to do a lot...it makes us laugh, even at ourselves sometimes :lol:

[John A Stuart]

Hi All, Just for the background information to understand why the name 'shingen' as Koichi san described. Here is a pic of a shingen bukuru 信玄袋 showing the weave that is their namesake. I am curious as to why they are sort of called a 'magic bag'. John

[Ford Hallam]

yes, thanks for that bit of information Koichi San...and the pics, John. I don't have a great Shingen tsuba but I do have a Shingen bukuro...only I didn't know it until now

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

You can't extend that observation, of one tsuba, to cover all other examples. This is a fundamental failure of logic...sorry

 

Ok, Ok, if you come across a Shingen tsuba without iron, please don't forget to let me know.

[Ford Hallam]

Jacques,

 

I believe the tsuba I posted, from the Chicago Field Museum is precisely of the type of core-less construction I describe. I see no visual evidence for an iron core and wouldn't place too much weight on the descriptions of museum staff, however well meaning they may be. It is clear that in this example there are wires threaded through the edge of the central brass disc that surrounds the seppadai. It's also clear that they are threaded out to the rim. This part is obviously then covered with the applied fukurin to hide and protect that point of contact. It's also very clear that these connecting "spokes" are then woven though with 3 different colours of brass and copper. Where exactly is there space for this completely redundant core iron plate?

 

Further, if we allow for a plate we then have to try and figure out the wire would be worn under and over those wire "spokes" that would presumably be lying on top of the iron...and then go through the same contorted exercise on the other side. It doesn't sound at all plausible to me because it insists on a totally impractical and unnecessary approach.

 

I did also say that I have personally examined at least on such shingen tsuba that was made as I describe but if I can find another, clearer example I'll be sure to let you know

 

regards,

 

ford

 

 

 

p.s. This may be another of the type I'm describing. Note the brass centre and the wires threaded around that pass through the holes in that brass centre. Notice the apparent twisting of the "spokes" as they radiate out towards the rim. This may be a consequence of the weaving procedure. Anyone who's actually woven a reed and rattan basket will recognise this feature. Each pass of woven wire/cane tends to push the "spokes" a little ahead, in the direction the weave is being made. The net result is exactly such a spiral twist. The rim is covered with a fukurin also.

[Jacques D.]

Hi,

 

Other peculiar guards, such as Shingen and Nam-

ban, date from that period. Shingen tsuba take their

name from that of the great general, Takeda Shingen,

who advocated this type of guard on account of its

lightness. There are four distinct forms listed under

this category which cannot be described here save to

say that in each case they are decorated with wire laced

or inlaid in the iron.

 

From here

 

 

From nihonto-koza:

 

 

 

 

 

According to one theory, it is said