Shingen Tsuba Short Paper

[zanilu]

Nice find Dale!

 

As Richard say I have never seen any clue about the origin of the connection of these kind of tsuba with Takeda Shingen.

When was Myochin Yasuchika active (and here I am showingmy ignorance )? Any overlapping with the life span of Takeda Shingen? Or later? Is the tsuba legit? Gimei? A lot of questions without an answer but a direction of research worth a deeper look.

 

I have even found a reference connecting Shingen Bukuro to Takeda Shingen wood block prints where those kind of bags were reproduced... 

 

Thank you Dale.

 

Regards 

Luca

 

[Steve Waszak]

Hi Luca,

 

I've just downloaded your article.  Looking forward to reading it!    I'd love to see more of these well-researched, subject-specific articles on tosogu like this.  Kudos, Luca, and many thanks for your efforts!  

 

Steve

[Spartancrest]

3 hours ago, zanilu said:

any clue about the origin of the connection of these kind of tsuba with Takeda Shingen

There was reference to the design [with the centipede] as coming from Nobuie to start with - can we find a Nobuie guard with the design? Though there were several "Nobuie" it might give us a timeline back as far as them?

The two men overlap in dates which makes it plausible?  Takeda Shingen (武田 信玄, December 1, 1521 – May 13, 1573)   Myōchin Nobuie (c.1504-54) 

[Spartancrest]

As it happens I have found a Nobuie 'centipede' tsuba - and it does look a lot like the Sotheby's Myochin. 

https://www.lot-art....suba-30.10.17-bonham

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Nice find, Dale, but it is described as 'after Nobuie'.

[Spartancrest]

Darn - I thought it was too easy  Well we know two makers were copying a work [or works] by Nobuie so it is likely some are still out there somewhere. - - Gives me something to look for. 

To be fair the guard is signed Nobuie. [Are we sure the description of 'shakudo' ategane is right? It looks like nigurome "burnt copper" with that brownish red worn spot.]  

[Spartancrest]

How about this one - https://www.letwrite...e6gosruuttnvppt.html

[zanilu]

Dale you are a real hound!

 

Well done!

 

Luca

[Brano]

Few of mine

[Spartancrest]

4 hours ago, zanilu said:

Dale you are a real hound!

Luca

   Of course I was a lot younger when this picture was taken - But my looks never improved! 

 

Sorry this is off topic but the link to the Nobuie [ https://www.letwrite...] is likely a bogus site and I would not "purchase" anything from them unless you do some research - A half price discount and a site called "Baby-Shop" is unlikely to be a genuine place to buy tosogu! 

[Spartancrest]

Some new images of "Nobuie Mukade"  - two signed images from links to malicious sites who have taken them from somewhere else and one image of an unsigned copy(?) of the one  Posted Monday at 03:00 PM

Sorry but the images are from small thumbnails and don't get much better when enlarged. Two images lower left are just because I liked the designs 

 

[Spartancrest]

On 8/24/2023 at 1:25 PM, Curran said:

@zanilu 

I have a question - where would this guard fit [if it even does?] with being Mukade or Shingen?

It is from the Klefisch Auction House collection of sold items  https://klefischaukt...sxgHNjqlMDWyo7m_CA2k

No information on any of the pieces. I have seen just a few like this, with twisted wires either hammered into the plate or welded. This one almost looks like coils of wire inset into a cut out but hard to be sure as the ura view is unavailable. There is a "nanban" or Hizen look to the seppa-dai?

Regards

Dale

[zanilu]

Hi Dale, your guess is as good as mine. 

 

Doesn't look like Shingen or Mukade since, apart from the twisted brass rope, it does not have much in common with either...

 

From the seppa dai I would have said Hizen, also there is that cross hatching on the hira close to the mimi that looks like the base for nunome zogan.

 

Don't know.

 

Regards

Luca

[rkg]

Since the topic of Nobuie/Myouchin mukade themed tsuba has come up....    Here's one of those pieces that I had been trying to acquire for a really long time and finally got to a couple of years ago  - its mumei and came with a stack of papers to Myouchin - I guess a former owner was trying for a Nobuie attribution or something...

 

The back might actually be my favorite part because its pretty surreal (and yeah, I think there are two mukade there - the one on the bottom is pretty abstract) - the metal work reminds me a lot of a not-like-the-others Nobuie that I think is my favorite tsuba ever, but I digress.  Aw, what the heck... I'll stick in an image of it anyway (the rocks/waves effect in hand is just brilliant) - apologies if this is too far off-topic:

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

EDIT: no, I don't think mine is -really- a nobuie, its just really really cool to me...

 

 

[zanilu]

Beautiful tsuba indeed Richard

 

If we are able to locate other tsuba with naturally depicted mukade that are papered or with solid attribution to Myochin we can start considering the hypothesis put forward by Dale.

 

Can you elaborate on the "stack of papers to Myouchin" you mentioned about your tsuba? Can you also share the dimensions? 

 

Best regards 

Luca

[rkg]

Luca,

No problem on the dimensions.  I put up a description of the piece on Rich Turner's old kodogu no sekai FB page that I seem to have inherited.  The papers are buried at the bottom of one of my safes under a large stack of tsuba boxes and it might take a while to get to them, so I'll have to get you some scans of those later.

 

https://www.facebook...t=a.3953650578023594

 

And for those FB haters here's the description from the album:

 

Mukade (百足) themed Myochin (明珍) tsuba

I photographed this piece back in 2014 and was happy to purchase it when it recently became available.

This otafuku gata (お多福形, oblong spindle shaped) tsuba is made from iron and measures 89.4mm (H) X 72.64mm (W) X 4.06mm (T,nakago ana), 5.33mm (T, max, mimi). It weighs 137.9g The tsuba has an uchikaeshi mimi (打返耳,upset edge) in which prominent tekkotsu (鉄骨, iron bones) are visible. The surface is very dark (which appears to be due to a combination of lacquer and finishing) and is decorated with mukade (百足, millipede (or ishimukade -石百足,stone centipede)). I think its pretty cool how they appear to “rise up” out of the piece (particularly on the back side).

The age is hard to judge because the surface seems very well taken care of (and is waxed), but from the quality of work and large amount of arsenic that seems to have leached from the lead hitsu ana plugs, it appears to be fairly old, and I would date it to the early Edo period (17th Century). The piece has papers from several different groups, all attributing it to the Myouchin (明珍) group of tsuba makers.

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

[zanilu]

Thank you Richard!

 

Regards

Luca

[Spartancrest]

On 9/19/2023 at 5:15 AM, zanilu said:

Luca

Just some trivia. You have a "Shingen" tsuba Figure 1.36: (a) Compton collection number 91 - "It has twenty-four spokes which are now wrapped in brass wire on the rim and with copper wire over the spokes.."

It turns out this tsuba originally came from the collection of J.C. Hawkshaw and was published by Henri Joly in 1910.

 

 

Japanese sword-mounts : a descriptive catalogue of the collection of J.C. Hawkshaw, Esq., M.A., of Hollycombe, Liphook
by Joly, Henri L

Pages 28 [image] and 29.

 

"The Shingen. 

 

These tsuba are usually of iron, covered with copper or brass wire ; they are of several kinds ; the Mukade proper (centipede) has one or two circles or portions of circles of iron wire crossed by numerous short pieces reminiscent of a centipede’s body and legs ; the others are either covered with copper wire braided and plaited, or with brass and copper wire woven on a perforated iron guard ; or woven like mats in copper, iron and brass wire. The name Shingen is that of the general Takeda Shingen, who is said to have greatly favoured this style of tsuba. Huge Shingen tsuba were made, I have seen some weighing about one pound (say 450 grammes).

 

294. — Shingen tsuba, the groundwork of iron with 25 radiating spokes, the rim engraved with a pattern of spirals, overlaid with copper and brass wire stranded and held in place by brass wire, the spokes overlaid with copper. Late 17th century."
 

 

The statement  "I have seen some weighing about one pound (say 450 grams)" would seem to put some doubt on the claim that "Shingen" tsuba were prized for their 'lightness'? You might notice the descriptions [highlighted] say twenty-four and twenty-five spokes - which one of the owners can't count? 

[zanilu]

Thank you Dale well spotted.

 

I will add these information to the other for the next revision of the paper.

 

Regards 

Luca