Shingen Tsuba Short Paper

[zanilu]

Hello

 

Brian has just posted a small paper I have written about Shingen tsuba.

You can find it in the download section

 

I have recently added to my collection some Shingen tsuba and I did some research about them and wanted to share the result with you.

If you have any comment, corrections, line of improvement and further information to add please let me know. 

English is not my mother thong so if you find spelling or gramma mistakes please point them out. 

 

I hope you find it an interesting read.

 

Regards

Luca

[Spartancrest]

18 hours ago, zanilu said:

English is not my mother thong

 

Luca - Sorry but I am having a chuckle with the translation - Thong should be "Mother Tongue".  Thongs can mean other things depending on where you live.

  Aussie "thongs" - or "flip flops" 

  Ladies underwear "Thongs"

 

I look forward to studying the PDF  There looks to be a lot of information there to take in! Fantastic work!

[zanilu]

 

Thank you Dale for the correction! It was the android auto correct function.... 

 

Regards

Luca

[Ford Hallam]

Thanks for putting this pdf Luca. It looks to be a good breakdown of the various style of woven guards. Their construction has intrigued me for many years and I hope to do a tutorial project of them sometime. I'll reference your paper If I may.

[kissakai]

Hi Luca

So many Shingen tsuba were I never seen so many variations - thanks for the great reference

Don't know if it has been asked before but I'd like to see other Shingen tsuba apart from the plain weave we usually see.

I have one or two that are unusual that I post tomorrow

 

[Curran]

Luca-  Incredible paper.

   wow. I'm very glad I logged on tonight.

 

 

[Brian]

It really is a brilliantly put together article, probably the best source of info anywhere currently.
We are very lucky to have some of the members we do here.

[kissakai]

Hi Luca

Have you thought about doing the same for Namban tsuba?

I've read an English book on Namban tsuba that I'd happily give away as it was that bad

If Namban tsuba are researched as well as the Shigen tsuba it would surprise a lot of collectors

 

[Soshin]

Thanks for the article, I will look at it. Do try to fix the funny typos I make them all the time and English is my first language, so it isn't a big deal.  

 

[GRC]

Great article Luca. 

I think it makes a lot of sense to push for the separation of the Mukade-type from the Shingen-types.

 

By the way, I have a Japanese book that has a small section on late Edo period tourist tsuba, and the Mukade type was included in it!

I started looking through the ones I suspected it might be in, but haven't found the right book yet... as soon as I find it, I'll post it 

I seem to recall it said something to the effect of "the Mukade type appear to be newly made (late Edo), but it is possible that there may be some that have some age (but it was only a suggested "possibility", and an unspecified age)". 

 

Gotta find it...

[kissakai]

This mine which is quite unusual. I've obviously highlighted the faint engraving

 

 

 

 

[zanilu]

@Ford Hallamit would be great to see a tutorial of yours about the construction of Shingen tsuba. Of course you can youse may pdf as you see fit. 

 

Glen @GRC if you are able to find the reference you mentioned we could add more information to the Mukade tsuba that I think they deserve their own category. 

 

Grev @kissakai your piece is really interesting and unusual say the least, the internal iron core is visible but not the brass wires on the engrqved side. Also there is no brass plate covering the central region on the brass weaving side. Can I ask you if you can post a picture without the highlighted engravings. I would like to add your tsuba to a future revision of the paper. As for a similar paper for on Namban tsuba is not planned at the moment. I like to look into pieces of my collection at the moment do not include Namban tsuba. However I have recently acquired a nice Hizen Yagami tsuba, and stared collecting information about the school, let's see how it goes. 

 

@Brian, @Curran thank you for your kind words...

 

 

[Spartancrest]

10 hours ago, zanilu said:

Of course you can use my pdf as you see fit. 

Luca, how about you publish a small booklet on your Shingen Tsuba paper, you have done the work already and you might reach more people than on this forum. Also you might make some pocket money in the process!  There are several 'self-publishing' options available and they are reasonably easy to use and once done, you need only sit back and others will sell them for you. [There are several self-published authors already on the forum who I am sure would offer any help you need]

[kissakai]

There you go

 

 

[Spartancrest]

Some spelling errors to fix - shinchū - 真鍮 in the decoration subtitle page 2 [18] [In red]

 

"Decoration: Shingenbukuro (信玄袋): Brass wire (shincū harigane - 真鍮針金), brass wire braids (shincū harigane kumihimo - 真鍮針金組紐), or brass ropes (真鍮縄目), in various patterns with ligatures made of braids, ropes, or wires. A prominent dote-mimi (土手耳) made of brass wire braids is present, characterizing one family of tsuba in this style.
 

 

Also a little further down the page:

"In the principality of Kōshiu, which under celebrated general Takeda-Shingen (died 1573)"

I think it should read Kōshū [Kōshū (甲州市 Kōshū-shi) — a city in Yamanashi Prefecture]

[Spartancrest]

Luca I also found better images of a guard on page 58 - a mukade with sukashi mon. Figure 1.69: (a)

one of the sites with the red background image http://nihonto.us/MUKADE & MON DM0026.htm  Looks like there are a few getting about!

 

I just found another poor image that turns out to be a repeat of one on the previous page - both are the same tsuba - one being very 'pixelated' pages 35 & 36

 

Also a slightly clearer image of page 52 Figure 1.58: (b)

[zanilu]

Thank you Grev and Dale. I will collect comments and new pictures  for inclusion in the next revision.

 

As for publishing a booklet from the pdf I have not considered it. Probably most of the of the the picture are under some copyright and I do not have the time nor the desire of dealing with such matters.

 

Regards

Luca

[Curran]

17 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

Some spelling errors to fix - shinchū - 真鍮 in the decoration subtitle page 2 [18] [In red]

 

"Decoration: Shingenbukuro (信玄袋): Brass wire (shincū harigane - 真鍮針金), brass wire braids (shincū harigane kumihimo - 真鍮針金組紐), or brass ropes (真鍮縄目), in various patterns with ligatures made of

 

 

shincū   vs  shinchū

is more Italian pronunciation vs english spelling?  Lots of hidden 'h' sounds in Italian, where the 'h' sound is understood.

Example:   ci sono  [there are]  in italian, but the audible version is c(h)i sono when spoken and heard by an English speaker.

When an Italian reads "shincū", it audibly will sound shinchū ?

 

@zanilu   honestly, your article is incredible.  I remember a period years passed when I heavily relied on Torigoye-san's writing to justify my limited understanding of Shingen tsuba. I wish your publication had been around then. It should be read by many more people. It is very well done. Thank you_ thank you!

 

[zanilu]

Thank you @Curranto put my typing mistake into a linguistic frame, but is just a typo. Thank you for your kind words. You are too kind I would say

 

As for the Dale @Spartancrest comment about Kōshiu .I do agree with you that it should be  Kōshū but since it was written like that in the original text and I was citing it I left it untouched. Maybe I will add a footnote to address that. 

 

I am following a six day, six hours per day Katori Shinto Ryu stage in Milan with a temperature between 36/38 Celsius so if I am slow in answering you posts you can understand why. 

 

Regards to all of you

 

Luca

[Spartancrest]

5 hours ago, Curran said:

shincū   vs  shinchū

is more Italian pronunciation vs english spelling? 

Yes I am sure the pronunciation is the same in Italian - - but there are two spellings in the original Pdf and it is better if they were spelled the same way in each case, else we will not know if it refers to two different terms.

 

 

[Spartancrest]

2 hours ago, zanilu said:

since it was written like that in the original text and I was citing it I left it untouched.

I agree with leaving the original text when quoting an older reference - a lot can get lost if we edit the original, but you might like to include the modern spelling in brackets so you get the best of both worlds.

 

"In the principality of Kōshiu [Modern Kōshū], which under celebrated general Takeda-Shingen (died 1573)"     - Just my opinion.

[Spartancrest]

The myth around Takeda Shingen making these tsuba continues with Amazon promoting a T-shirt with the story in their product description:  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08NXFT993  - it looks very much like the same tsuba Figure 1.9: or Figure 1.11: [1.11 is Copyright © 2016 by Richard K. George! ]  ?

 

[Brian]

I think Rich did those as a sideline just for fun.

[Larason2]

Great article, thanks!

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

interesting Shingen/Heianjo mashup

 

[rkg]

On 8/25/2023 at 3:18 AM, Spartancrest said:

The myth around Takeda Shingen making these tsuba continues with Amazon promoting a T-shirt with the story in their product description:  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08NXFT993  - it looks very much like the same tsuba Figure 1.9: or Figure 1.11: [1.11 is Copyright © 2016 by Richard K. George! ]  ?

 

Dale,

Yup - that piece is mine - used with permission by Luca in his article.

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

[Bugyotsuji]

Here’s mine.

 

[zanilu]

Nice one Piers!

 

Regards 

Luca

[Spartancrest]

On 8/24/2023 at 1:25 PM, Curran said:

@zanilu 

I found something very interesting from a Sotheby's auction - https://www.sothebys...-l05860/lot.820.html

A Miochin/Myochin tsuba with a centipede trailing around the edge in 'Mukade' fashion and being described as "Lord Shingen's favourite design."  I think it might be a stretch but if true that would mean Shingen tsuba should all be Mukade - not the woven wire ones we all think of as 'Shingen' - it does my head in! 

One auction site description does not not make it a truth though! 

 

[rkg]

Maybe the Sotheby's copy writer got a little overly enthusiastic

 

But seriously, I wonder where the source of the story about shingen tsuba came from/was first recorded.  As collectors we take so much of this as gospel w/o really knowing where the reference came from...

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)