Tsuba design

[kissakai]

I think this may be a plum rather than a chrysanthemum

I wonder what the bar underneath means. Could be a ruler as this is usually shown as a straight bar

This is all I have as it is in the post from Japan

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by kissakai
Line added

[Larason2]

I don't think plum or chrysanthemum. Usually plum has two lobes on each petal, and Chrysanthemum has way more leaves. My vote is cherry blossom, usually depicted with a more round leaf. The bar could be the cherry branch. 

[Matsunoki]

Other way round maybe? Plum blossom has rounded petals with no indentation imo…..

 

[Larason2]

There's lots of pictures of the plum online with an indentation in their leaf. If cherry blossoms are irregular, they tend to have a point on each petal, whereas if plum blossoms are irregular, they tend to have an indentation. Given that, in my opinion, an indentation is more representative of the plum. The plum blossom seems to be more common on tsuba, and when it's there, it usually has an indentation in the petals. That's my opinion!

[rematron]

Might as well throw my opinion in here. Googling “plum blossom tsuba” will produce images of flowers with rounded edges. Googling “cherry blossom tsuba” will produce images of flowers with an indentation at the tip of each petal.  My own katana which has a plum blossom theme has tosogu with rounded tip petals on the flowers.  Plum tosogu also tends to highlight the fact that plum blossoms bloom right next to the branches which could explain the rectangle partly obscuring the flower. So my inexperienced opinion puts me in the plum camp.  

 

 

 

 

[Nobody]

36 minutes ago, Larason2 said:

There's lots of pictures of the plum online with an indentation in their leaf. If cherry blossoms are irregular, they tend to have a point on each petal, whereas if plum blossoms are irregular, they tend to have an indentation. Given that, in my opinion, an indentation is more representative of the plum. The plum blossom seems to be more common on tsuba, and when it's there, it usually has an indentation in the petals. That's my opinion!

 

You obviously mistake cherry blossoms for plum blossoms.

 

[kissakai]

Plum it is - Some nice replies - thanks

 

[vajo]

plum blossom on water?

[Bugyotsuji]

Although strictly speaking not a plum in the Western sense, umé is Japanese apricot, with beautiful flowers. The fruit is used mainly for umeboshi and ume-shu.

[Larason2]

Looking more closely at the plum blossoms online, the ones I thought were divided were actually more than one petal. So I will accept the correction! As they say, I've never learned anything from an argument I've won!

[ROKUJURO]

As half of the flower shown has 3 petals, a full flower probably had 6 (UME no HANA shape) of them, but in nature ROSACEAE only have 5, so it might not be an exact copy of nature but something like a symbol or a KAMON.

[GRC]

It's a plum on raft motif.

The one bar under the plum blossom is just an abstraction of a raft.

Very simple design, but evokes the full sentiment.

 

Like in the beams and bars sukashi thread:

There are a variety of flowers in the examples below

On 1/20/2022 at 2:12 PM, GRC said:

3. If the sticks are stacked side by side (2 or more sticks), often with the ends nearly even relative to each other, and sometimes appear to be bound (b,c,d), or are also in the presence of a pole (b), or a flower motif (a,c,d): IKADA (raft)

a) b) c) d)

 

[Matsunoki]

11 minutes ago, ROKUJURO said:

a full flower probably had 6

Not necessarily………?

[Larason2]

Haha, on that flower I see a dimple on some of the leaves! Nature is complicated!

[Matsunoki]

19 minutes ago, Larason2 said:

Nature is complicated!

True!  Many cultivars and species. We could keep this going for ages🙂

[Alex A]

10 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Although strictly speaking not a plum in the Western sense, umé is Japanese apricot, with beautiful flowers. The fruit is used mainly for umeboshi and ume-shu.

Popular for Bonsai.

 

 

[Bugyotsuji]

Nice. Which reminds me, Alex! Mustn’t forget the similar blossoms of ボケ, (boké), the flowering quince bush.

[ROKUJURO]

7 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Not necessarily………?

Colin, 

that's not half, but just 2 petals cut off.

I think the design is just symbolical, maybe for UME no HANA.

[Alex A]

8 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Nice. Which reminds me, Alex! Mustn’t forget the similar blossoms of ボケ, (boké), the flowering quince bush.

That's another used in Bonsai, cheers.

[Bugyotsuji]

So are you suggesting that the bar sukashi could be an indication for bonsai? 

[Alex A]

No Piers, gone off on a bit of a tangent.

 

Just interesting that all the trees mentioned have also been favourites with Bonsai practitioners for centuries. Due to their flowers.  

[BIG]

Motiv may be casket and ume (keso no ume)

 

https://www.finarte....-tsuba-89489?lang=en

 

Best

[Spartancrest]

   It might just be a simplified branch with petals - like this bamboo and two leaves? 

https://www.jauce.com/auction/q1102986334

[kissakai]

I surprised me how many replies this post received so thanks for all the input

Hi Dale. Even this simplified branch has some form whereas mine has all straight lines

 

[GRC]

Here's another "Tosho" example with both a complete and partial ume flower, like Grev's, but without the raft.

 

And a kamakura-bori with partial ume and a complete katabami or sakura flower in sukashi:

 

And another "katchushi" style tsuba with a partial ume, and complete katabami or sakura flower:

 

so, the partial ume flower sukashi was definitely a recurring motif of the times.

 

...and just for contrast, here's one with a partial katabami or sakura flower:

 

 

[kissakai]

Before and after. I tried to add the second set but couldn't find my original post!

One the second image you can see traces of the cross cross pattern. I wonder what it would have looked like when it was made

 

 

 

 

[Stephen]

Well done Grev

Did you just use bone rubbing?

Any other cleaner...oil?

[kissakai]

All as suggested on the NMB. Warm soapy water and soft brush and antler horn

My photography may also be better than the sellers

 

[BIG]

Hi Grev,

 

https://www.samuraim...samurai-sword-t-241/

 

Unce saw it and now find it..

[kissakai]

Glad you are back 'Big'

Such a nice find, thanks

Mine is 8.1 x 8.1 x .3 and a single bar

The description is apricot which from an earlier post by Alex

'strictly speaking not a plum in the Western sense, umé is Japanese apricot'