Flaw or not?

TenguSan · August 11, 2023

Hello All,

I was told that this cut is not a flaw but classified as honorable, or Homare Kizu (誉疵). The blade is suriage and is believed to be koto with edo koshirae. The irregular shape of the habaki fits very nicely over the damage, with the wave concealing most of it. It’s easy to imagine someone had a sentimental attachment to this piece given the size of the wound and what I imagine must have been some cost and effort to have it repolished with the damaged portions straightened and a habaki made to cover the wound while keeping as much of the original length as possible. Not to mention the fact that I would guess from the position and angle this was a defensive wound, and could have saved the owners life, although we’ll never know of course.
In looking for similar pieces out of curiosity I have not encountered any as of yet with a cut of this size being saved.
I was curious if anyone has input on these types of damages and repairs in history and whether such an issue would preclude it from being accepted at shinsa.

regards,

John

Alex A · August 11, 2023

First thoughts for me were what a great way to hide Hagire.

Baba Yaga · August 11, 2023

Looks like the sword WAS POLISHED around it. Also, Looks cool to me, but I go for that kind of thing.

PNSSHOGUN · August 11, 2023

http://www.ksky.ne.j...9/katanainfight.html

John C · August 11, 2023

With a cut that deep, it seems as if that area of the ha had not been hardened appropriately.

John C.

Matsunoki · August 11, 2023

I agree with Baba…..looks like the sword was polished but the area around the cut was left alone plus someone had a special habaki made for it to conceal the damage. Suggests someone really wanted to preserve it “as is” and valued it.
I believe some smiths used Yakidashi to deliberately lessen the effects of hardening in that area (to reduce the potential for hagire) ie the hamon is narrower thus potentially weaker so a direct hit in that area could well inflict such damage.

All part of its history.

I would love to hear expert opinion re its effect on potential Shinsa?….

rematron · August 11, 2023

My first thought:

Capture.PNG.7d337c7fb06a6ad6d84e4ab7c3dabf56.PNG

:glee:

Jacques D. · August 11, 2023

it's simple: if this "cut" reaches the nioiguchi, it's a fatal flaw; otherwise, it can be considered a fighting mark.

Mark S. · August 11, 2023

It is both a fatal flaw and and a part of the blades history. The two are not mutually exclusive. Whether it is ‘acceptable’ is left to the artistic sensibilities or collecting goals of the owner, or potential buyer in the case of the sale.

lonely panet · August 12, 2023

On 8/12/2023 at 3:39 AM, rematron said:

My first thought:

if the shark movies called JAWS

this could be called FLAWS, insert music now dadadaddada da dont

Mark S. · August 13, 2023

15 hours ago, lonely panet said:

this could be called FLAWS, insert music now dadadaddada da dont

“You’re gonna need a bigger shirasaya!”

2devnul · August 16, 2023

Hello,

How hard the strike must have been to cut so deeply in to the hardened steel. For me personally this type of damage (or cuts on Mune) is an added value as it reveals a bit of sword history (used for fighting, not only carrying). I'm also interested about Shinsa opinion, but I guess it depends much on the blade itself (would they reject precious blade due to cuts?).

Can you please share more pictures, including whole blade, Nakago and Koshirae?

ROKUJURO · August 16, 2023

On 8/11/2023 at 5:03 PM, Alex A said:

First thoughts for me were what a great way to hide Hagire.

That is a KIRI KOMI, not HAGIRE.

Surprizing to see it in the HA, as I would have expected the metal to break by this impact.

Alex A · August 16, 2023

I know Jean

PietroParis · August 16, 2023

9 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

That is a KIRI KOMI, not HAGIRE.

I suppose the suggestion was that the kirikomi was added to conceal a pre-existing hagire, no?

Alex A · August 17, 2023

I didn't mean necessarily in the case with the sword above.

What i meant is, if someone was to discover an hagire after a polish, making it unsaleable.

Then rather the crack, an unscrupulous seller could relace the crack with what appears to be a cut. Using an hardened chisel or what ever means someone in the know could come up with.

To appeal to those that find "battle scars" so appealing.

As noticed there does seem to be a following and such blades usually sell, a lot faster than those with Hagire.

I have a suspicious mind, that comes with what ive learned about buying antiques over the years. Folks find ways to fool folks.

Ps, Hagire in that area of the blade are quite common, hence why you see so many waks made from Katana.

2devnul · August 17, 2023

3 hours ago, Alex A said:

I didn't mean necessarily in the case with the sword above.

What i meant is, if someone was to discover an hagire after a polish, making it unsaleable.

Then rather the crack, an unscrupulous seller could relace the crack with what appears to be a cut. Using an hardened chisel or what ever means someone in the know could come up with.

To appeal to those that find "battle scars" so appealing.

As noticed there does seem to be a following and such blades usually sell, a lot faster than those with Hagire.

I have a suspicious mind, that comes with what ive learned about buying antiques over the years. Folks find ways to fool folks.

Ps, Hagire in that area of the blade are quite common, hence why you see so many waks made from Katana.

That makes a lot of sense Alex, thank you. I learned something today.

This would also explain how was it possible (how hard was the sword strike, is it even possible in battle?) to cut so deeply with other sword.

Alex A · August 17, 2023

Just a thought Adam, always sceptical.

Shugyosha · August 17, 2023

I find it odd that it almost looks like a double cut at the same spot. @Adam - this is indeed possible hence the tendency to use the mune or side of the blade to deflect a strike because a deep cut like this one might fatally weaken a blade during combat.

In general Kirikomi aren’t regarded as fatal flaws because they actually demonstrate the smith’s skill in that the blade was strong enough for the purpose for which it was designed. In this case, however, it looks like the ha has been cut through and I think that takes it dangerously close to fatal flaw territory - just an opinion though. I’d steer clear on this basis as there are plenty of swords out there for sale without this risk.

TenguSan · August 18, 2023

Adam,

I don’t have an image of the entire blade at the moment but here are some shots of the nakago and the other side of the cut

TenguSan · August 18, 2023

TenguSan · August 18, 2023

2devnul · August 18, 2023

Hello,

Thanks for sharing the pictures John.

On 8/17/2023 at 2:10 PM, Shugyosha said:

I find it odd that it almost looks like a double cut at the same spot. @Adam - this is indeed possible hence the tendency to use the mune or side of the blade to deflect a strike because a deep cut like this one might fatally weaken a blade during combat.

John J., still, the cut is so deep that for me it is hard to believe that it's been made during hand-to-hand combat. I've seen swords with battle scars but never saw a cut like that. On habaki (brass) I agree, maybe even on mune (softer), but on the HA? Another John posted link to nice article:

http://www.ksky.ne.j...9/katanainfight.html

I also have a pic from one of the swords which was in my collection (not necessary battle scar, but definitely someone tried to cut something that was way to hard for the blade).

What I want to point is that IMHO HA will rather chip, not have a perfect cut like that. Especially not from hand-to-hand strikes. That is why Alex's theory is quiet possible.

Matsunoki · August 18, 2023

In this image the steel actually looks quite bent suggesting an unhardened area.

Baba Yaga · August 18, 2023

Could be from a Naginata, really interesting size cut.

TenguSan · August 18, 2023

If this was a cut from something other than combat what would be the logic of keeping it? I.E. you could cut it shorter and have no mark on it. The current length is 62.4 cm, which I believe is rather long for a wakizashi. Also the bohi extends only to the habaki, not through the nakago, so whoever had it shortened must have added that to make it a little lighter since it’s on the longer side for a wakizashi. Unless the original bohi extended only around 3/4 of the length of the blade with seems fairly unlikely I think with this style. So it seems as if it would make more sense from a financial standpoint to make it shorter for resale than keep the damage. That combined with the rather nice (I think) habaki which they had made would lead me to believe the wound was of some significance to the owner.

Matsunoki · August 18, 2023

Are we sure this is suriage?

Alex A · August 18, 2023

Unless there is a piece of another blade embedded or some kind of provenance (even that has issues), then you will really never know unless you knew who owned the sword and you had a time machine to go ask.

They can make a really bland blade that bit more interesting, for some folks. (not talking about this blade)

Lets face it, not very hard to create. The apprentice at work lost his rag one day with a steel ruler and attacked a machine lol. Every time i see the marks he created it reminds me of Kiri Komi, maybe this is why I'm so sceptical about them.

Just marks, don't know what all the fuss is about.

DoTanuki yokai · August 19, 2023

The previous owners of this sword didn’t saw it as a flaw as a slight machiokuri would get rid of it in my opinion.

And hardned is not always the same hardness especially in tamahagane and so close to the tang.
In the earliest times of Nihonto it was common to not harden this part at all and have big Fumbari to make it unlikely to break there.
And of course even hardned steel can bent to some degree without cracking.

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