Copper tsuba before and after cleaning

[GoldenDrachen]

Hello everyone!

 

Recently I have purchased this tsuba, as you can see in poor state, bought it specifically to try cleaning.

 

Signed, I believe Ishiyama Mototada ( I might be wrong, so any correction is very welcome)

Depicting Hotei

 

Here is what I get after not too invasive cleaning

 

 

I tried to preserve all signs of wear and mounting.

What do you think?

 

Regards,

Vitaly 

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Vitaly

 

Given the poor condition of the piece when you received it you've not stepped wrong, yet 

 

My first observation, and surprise bonus for you, is that while the core of your tsuba is copper the outer faces are in fact shakudo. The trace of black patina before cleaning is a good clue but if you examine the inside of the kozuka hitsu in the first image the sandwich construction is clear.

 

Judging from the present surface colour and condition I'm assuming you used a mild pickle of tarnish removing solution to clean off the old discolouration.

 

This surface will not repatinate as it is, either naturally or in a traditional patination solution. This is because there is now a fine deposit of dissolved copper oxides bound to the crystal structure of the shakudo. But as the surface is somewhat pitted and scratched a light re-polish would really be called for and would resolve those issues and allow for the original patina appearance to be re-developed. If you do proceed don't use any synthetic abrasives as the finish will be too bright and wont allow for the patina to grow properly. I'd suggest a fine black nagura stone or, if you can find one, water of ayr stone, followed by magnolia charcoal. To finish up in this case I'd use a very fine pumice powder and water paste gently used with a soft or worn toothbrush. The next step would be actual patination but that's a whole other cooking class if you really want to get it spot on. 

 

Btw, don't be tempted to use emery paper of the like as that will only soften the edges of the kata-kiri and completely kill the whole effect.

 

I wouldn't pay too much attention to the mei, whoever cut it could barely use the chisel .  Having said that the tsuba was decently constructed and the kata-kiri, while not exactly a masterpiece, is a fair enough example of late work.

[Bazza]

Ford - do you mean to say this is a gimei of Motoyama Ishitada???  Bob Morrison showed a tsuba No 267 of a similar construction with NBTHK paper and in katakiri:

 

 

I know Ford said:

> I wouldn't pay too much attention to the mei, whoever cut it could barely use the chisel . 

> Having said that the tsuba was decently constructed and the kata-kiri, while not exactly a masterpiece, is a fair enough example of late work. ,

Vitaly, if your tsuba is a genuine work by Motoyama Ishitada I strongly, STRONGLY suggest you let Ford restore it.  I have a tsuba by this artisan and the style of signature with ISHIYAMA in small characters and MOTOTADA in 'normal' size characters point to a genuine, high quality work unless 'someone' says it is gimei.  I honestly think that a gimei tsuba is hardly likely to be a sandwich construction of high quality shakudo facing pieces.  I have compared the two signatures in side-by-side windows and even the mei on Bob's tsuba looks a tad clunky to my eye.  Is there an expert in the house???  More below.

 

This may well be gimei, but in this thread Stenbar asked

 

Ford wrote:
Posted August 14, 2008

To add to the picture of who the man was... the following is from Haynes; with some added speculation on my part.

 

Mototada was also a painter, something which may have added to his design abilities. He was schooled in metalwork by the Kyoto branch of the Goto family and other Kyoto studios. I get the impression of someone somewhat outside of the mainline school system therefore. He inherited his father rank of 3rd level court noble ( Kuge ), perhaps this allowed him a certain freedom in moving between schools etc.

 

This type of bold and sweeping kata-kiri work is more likely influenced by the Yokoya lineage, Somin being credited with the invention of the technique. Many other artists used the technique subsequently but this does have a strong Somin look to my eye.

 

Some clearer, and larger images would allow for a better assessment of the quality of the work but it seems to me to reasonably good, as one would expect.

 

Regards, Ford

So maybe Vitaly's tsuba needs a closer look????

 

There is one more tsuba offered by Kyle Shuttleworth that has a similar 'clunky' looking mei - is this a characteristic of Mototada's mei???  Its the third tsuba down.

 

BaZZa.

 

PS: Edited to add that I would put up a photo of my MOTOTADA tsuba but I don't have a photo readily available.  Furthermore, it is iron and in a completely different material and style, though of course the mei could stand scrutiny.  I'll try and get this together.

 

 

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Bazza

 

I wouldn't have said gimei as such, more likely Ato-mei (the mei added much later ). And yes, Mototada's mei do tend to look a little 'stiff' and clunky the ends of his strokes never the less still exhibit an understanding of the correct brushwork stroke. I dont get a sense of that in this example, it feel a bit too contrived to me. But that's just my opinion.

 

As regards the sandwich construction, shakudo was a pricy material, but labour to perform basic workshop tasks on the other hand was not. Would a celebrated artist be using veneered material to save costs?

[GoldenDrachen]

I am sorry, didn't have time yesterday to digest all the information, have been behind the wheel for 6 hours, too tired.

Now I am on the bus, going to my iaido session, have got about 1 hour on my hands.

 

First and foremost, Thank you so much@Ford Hallam for your answer! I always appreciate and value your expertise!

I have couple of questions regarding your advice

I surely can get nagura stones and magnolia charcoal sticks, what grit of stones should I use? Something from 600/800 to 2000?

Polishing part should not be a problem.

But the I actually would like to try repatinate this tsuba 

I was hoping you could help me with that.

Maybe recommend "cooking" recipe?

I have on my hands copper pot solid without any soldering

Also rokusho:

Is this one suitable?

 

I wanted to try to explore Japanese patinas anyway, so why not to start now?

 

Hello @Bazza

Great information there, I have to go through it couple of times more.

To be honest I wasn't too excited about Mei from the start, just the fact that it is there and reads in certain way.

I would take Ford's side on this matter 

 

Regards

Vitaly 

[Larason2]

Nagura stones are usually quite a fine grit, something like 5000-8000. The black nagura Ford is talking about would be along those lines. Just google "black nagura" or "kuro nagura." They are only mined underwater in Tsushima.

 

You can probably also get what they call a "koma nagura" stone, that is what I would do, they are fairly economical. These are the second finest stones used to polish a Japanese sword. Namikawa Heibei sells a small one for polishing the bohi of a Japanese sword you can probably cut in 4 for tsuba: 

 

https://www.namikawa-ltd.com/product/65

 

As far as I know, Urushi watanabe.net is the only source for magnolia charcoal to foreigners. They have the 100g and the 500g. Here's the 100g:

 

http://www.urushi-wa...gi?sort=4&word=L0298

 

I got the 500g, which is enough to last you a lifetime! 500 comes in a fairly big bag with multiple large pieces in it. You have to cut them to a smaller size to use. 

 

Both stores are currently on vacation, so you'll have to wait at least a week for your order to be filled! I have ordered from both, and it was a good experience.

 

Jim Kelso has a tutorial online of the Rokusho patina, also called "niage:"

 

https://www.jimkelso...na.html/tutorial.htm

 

Ford also has an excellent and very detailed video he produced on how to go about Rokusho patination, which I would say is about 10x more useful than Jim Kelso's article, but it may only be for his Patreon subscribers. So I'll wait to see if he says it's ok before sharing it. I'll only share one spoiler, and that is it's best to use fresh or frozen daikon radish. Regular radishes will work, but not that great. I found a big daikon locally, and froze most of it for future rokusho experiments!

 

The rokusho you have will probably work. The same material is used as a pigment, called "malachite". Depending on how fine it is ground, it becomes whiter looking. I ordered some "malachite" pigment from an art supplier, since it was much cheaper than rokusho. I haven't tried it yet, but I suspect it will probably also work. Mine looks a bit finer ground than yours. 

[Steves87]

Very interesting thread, so thank you to all for the valuable input!

I must admit, I am a bit "stuck" with the layered construction. I understand the usual Sanmei construction, and I see what Ford is referring to in the first picture, but every other picture appears to be solid construction (nd also at the mimi). This could, either way, be the lighting in the photos showing/or not showing details, and I admit, solid construction makes the fact of the edged Shakudo colouring a bit strange, where it is, but....

For my own piece of mind of seeing or not seeing something, could you please take some pictures of the inner surfaces and outer edges (nakago-ana, hitsu-ana, and mimi)?

[1kinko]

I thought the mine was flooded and closed quite a while ago. If that really is Tsushima-do, that’s a very good price. I bought quite a bit of it about 10 years ago and it cost more then. Tsushima-do also cuts very well on soft metals, much faster than scotch stone, so be careful. Charcoal powder does take a long time and it’s messy, but if you’re concerned about damaging your piece, you might want to try it with a horse hair brush (used to be Japanese woman’s hair). The nice part about these brushes is that penetrate evenly, not just on the top surface (they also get into the katakiri cuts).

[Larason2]

The koma nagura from Namikawa Heibei isn't tsushima-do, but I suspect it can work similar. It is quite soft, so it will likely desintegrate a lot like the water of ayr stone, and it is very fine grit like the Tsushima stone and other nagura stones. Tsushima stones are pricey. The cheapest I found for myself in Canada is here:

 

https://www.fendrihan.ca/products/kuro-nagura-Japanese-natural-slurry-stone?currency=CAD&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Google Shopping&gad=1&gclid=CjwKCAjw29ymBhAKEiwAHJbJ8qckwnbrB-V18ZHyVrhf8wq_on0FWVu3Xabds0HJJqEUtILfZJv6ixoCZn8QAvD_BwE

[Larason2]

Steve, I think Ford made his observations from the first two photos. The colour in the two Ana is that of pure copper. After a while, you come to recognize certain alloy colours you work a lot with. Shakudo has a fair bit of gold, (37.6% in Ford's recipe), so it's not very economical to make a tsuba out of pure shakudo. Then, only certain other alloys, like pure copper or shibuichi won't interfere with the patination process. Pure copper can also have a range of colours with patination from brown to orange, up to a bright red. So it might have actually also been a conscious choice as an accent colour in the tsuba's ana. 

[1kinko]

Thanks for the link! I have some mystery natural stones that I need to sort by cutting, slurry, and hardness.

[1kinko]

The shakudo recipe Ford gave me is 1.5% Au, 1% Ag, some As (can’t locate this percentage just now- I use kuromido), and the rest Cu. Above 3% there’s no change in blackness. Nowhere near 37.6%. Yikes!

[Steves87]

5 hours ago, Larason2 said:

Steve, I think Ford made his observations from the first two photos. The colour in the two Ana is that of pure copper. After a while, you come to recognize certain alloy colours you work a lot with. Shakudo has a fair bit of gold, (37.6% in Ford's recipe), so it's not very economical to make a tsuba out of pure shakudo. Then, only certain other alloys, like pure copper or shibuichi won't interfere with the patination process. Pure copper can also have a range of colours with patination from brown to orange, up to a bright red. So it might have actually also been a conscious choice as an accent colour in the tsuba's ana. 

Cool, and yes, no real disagreement here. I think what is throwing me off, is the lack of "construction line". In a couple of places it does appear a possibility, but in other views, I'd swear it is solid. Should there be more definitive lines/joints? Is there a possibility that these are effectively masked somehow, or just a product of photo quality? 

Not trying to cause issues, I'm just trying to get to grips with my own knowledge, as well as build on my "photo vs in-hand" appraisals.

[GoldenDrachen]

@Larason2 Thank you so much!

I guess this is the correct stone?

 

 

 

[Larason2]

Steve: On the first two photos, you can see a construction line, which is the change in patina close to the top of the ana. The shakudo layer is quite thin, something like 1mm. 

 

Vitaly: That looks like the right stone. "对馬黒名倉: tsushima black nagura" The tsushima do are coated on 5 sides with urushi to prevent them from disintegrating, which makes them look a little too slick, but the picture here shows the stone face on the top.

[Larason2]

Darrel: I think you're right about the Shakudo. The 37.6% is actually from a 9 ct alloyed gold ingot. In my ignorance, I thought that was Shakudo! Here's the video it comes from:

 

 

Thanks for the clarification!

[1kinko]

I finally found the % As- 0.5%.

 

Also, you need CuSO4 for the patina. Some also add a pinch of alum- though I don’t know what it does. In my hands, shakudo takes about 30-45 minutes to darken. You can take it out if the bath but do not let it dry until you are satisfied. Place it in H2O d to view it.

[Larason2]

Ford puts Borax and Alum into the solution. Helps to stabilize the elements that patinate, but it is optional. Some also put salt in as well, but Ford doesn't. 

[1kinko]

As you know borax will change the pH. Some also add an acid.  Some years ago posted that he had found the perfect recipe to create black shakudo and red copper- but he didn’t share his secret. I still don’t know what alum actually does.

[Ford Hallam]

Oops, there we have it, the veritable Pandora's box of questions surrounding patination 

 

The reason I haven't made my 1 hour rokusho patination tutorial publicly available is precisely because non of this is a simple matter of just following steps, and all the more so when dealing with old metal that has suffered unknown conditions.

The art of refinishing and recolouring older pieces lies in being able to anticipate typical or common issues and adjusting your approach and method to best deliver an age appropriate finish. In impatient or insensitive hands I shudder to think of the damage that might be unleashed by the well meaning but over confidant DIY squad .

 

The various additions that can be added to the basic or standard solutions are in fact added for very specific reasons, it's really not just a matter of popping in a bit of whatever is to hand. The additional tweaks perform specific actions as and when required.

 

As to construction of the tsuba, if you doubt my eyes ( poor mortals  ) perhaps just wait until its properly brought back to life and all will be clear.

 

Vitaly, if you send me your postal address via PM I'll send you a couple of suitable pieces of stone to complete the next step. 

 

I won't post a DIY patination tutorial publicly but if you join Patreon you can watch the film and I and few of the other active makers there can guide you to the Promised Land. Btw, Jim Kelso spent a week in my studio in Chippenham over 25 years ago, I shared with him at that time my processes as I'd leaned them in Japan. Much of my approach to working on antique material is quite different today.

[1kinko]

Nihonzashi.com posted a table of grit and particle sizes. The following are in microns.

honyama awasi (brown stone)- 1

karasu (blue stone)- 2

uchigunori- 3

ao-to )blue stone)- 6

koma  natural- 15

chu natural- 25

binsui coarse- 60

arato- 110

Tsushima-do wasn’t listed.

[ROKUJURO]

Darrel,

some of the stones are not written correctly. I think it should be

HONYAMA AWASE  (brown stone)- 1

KARASU (blue stone)- 2

UCHIGUMORI - 3

AO TO (blue stone) - 6

KOMA NAGURA - 15

CHU NAGURA - 25

BINSUI DO  coarse- 60

ARATO - 110
 

[1kinko]

Ah yes, a combination of my fingers on iPhone and iPhones wonderful spell check! Thanks for the corrections. At least I got the numbers right, huh?

[OceanoNox]

On 8/13/2023 at 6:16 PM, Steves87 said:

Should there be more definitive lines/joints? Is there a possibility that these are effectively masked somehow, or just a product of photo quality? 

I am not sure how this sandwich style would be processed, but in the process of making mokumegane, you have to make a mille-feuille of your different metals. The traditional process as I understood it is to heat just below the melting point, and hit the whole block with a hammer, and then work gently from there. However the process is that of solid diffusion, that is atoms from each metal sheet will diffuse into the neighbouring sheet (that has a lower concentration of atoms, so gold would move from shakudo to pure copper). Adding pressure should remove the voids that form naturally as the diffusivity of the atoms are not the same (if gold moves faster than copper, then the gold would leave voids) (this is the Smigelskas-Kirkendall void, apologies for any spelling mistakes). The end result is a solid block. The parameters are temperature, pressure, and time. If the process has failed, you could almost see lines with voids and oxides where the two original sheets met. Additionally, since this is a diffusion process, it should mean that there is less and less gold and any other alloying elements of the shakudo as you get closer to the copper.

 

If anyone is interested, there is an article about shakudo by Prof. Oguchi in 1983 (https://link.springe....1007/BF03214636.pdf) where the composition for varying shakudo grades are given (also for Edo and Meiji eras).

There are recipes for niiro, both in research articles available online and in books written by Japanese craftsmen, but it is unclear how each should be adapted to a specific alloy. Although the recent articles do clarify what is the role of daikon (apparently the breaking down of the cells of the daikon allow the formation of Allyl isothiocyanate, in the case of copper, which promote the formation of CuO).

[Larason2]

Interesting Arnaud, thanks. I didn't know about this process, I would be afraid it would become delaminated! My way of approaching this would be differential casting, but that has its pros and cons too. The hard part is casting a good copper without defects, and without a lot of copper oxide inside the tsuba to make it brittle. Differential casting is probably also more work! 

[Ford Hallam]

The typical method employed to apply a veneer of any reasonable thickness, like this, on a copper core would be to simply solder a frame/ring to the mimi and then similarly sweat solder the facing plates on. Sometimes we can see clear evidence of rivets too, usually on the seppa-dai area. There may in fact be at least one such rivet visible on the example under discussion ( upper left ura ). Edo period work was usually assembled with a simple silver solder made by adding different percentages of brass to silver, just as was the case in Europe et al. We sometime see evidence of the use of tin based solders but these tend either to be quite late or repairs. the use of lead solders has to be avoided if patination is planned. Source: repairing a few dozen such pieces over the past 25 years.