Sword belt

[kissakai]

Hi

I wonder if anyone can help with this sword belt?

It was purchased from a well known dealer in all nihonto but passed away quite some time ago

The label states:

WW2 Japanese officers leather belt with sword hangers

The only book I have with sword belts is Military Swords of Japan 1868 - 1945 by Fuller and Gregory

This belt is not shown in this book

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Simon R]

I've never seen a Japanese sword belt like that one, and to be honest, the leather looks far too new to be 70 years old. One other thing which makes me suspicious is that the combined brass hook/stud is of a cast type which I've seen on various reproduction belts and suspension straps.
 

 

[Larason2]

Yes, it looks pretty new. What the original seller probably meant is that it is a modern reproduction belt that can be used to hang a traditional Nihonto. In this case, it looks like it can be used to hang a Tachi. The Japanese usually used different belts to hang gunto, and this doesn't look like it would be very effective for hanging any kind of a Katana or Wakizashi. Should work on a Tachi, though this is hardly a traditional belt. Maybe was made in Japan post war to wear a Tachi ceremonially, say at a shinto temple. The leather work is actually pretty good quality.

[John C]

As a leather holster and sheath maker, it looks new to me. The leather color and brushed brass colored buckle are new. The clasps look inexpensive. In addition, the edges of the leather are not finished, which generally means made somewhere other than Japan. 

Just my opinion, of course.

John C.

[kissakai]

Thanks for the honest feed back

I am disappointed as I bought it on trust but sometimes you pay to learn especially if it something out of ones expertise

 

 

[Conway S]

It looks like a British style Sam Browne belt. They had a long service life so not necessarily a repro. Other countries adopted this style of belt too. 

 

Conway

[kissakai]

Conway

I do a search on San Brown belts and see if can find a match

 

[John C]

I did a quick search of my soldier pics and it looks like the utility belt had just one hook and hole rather than two.

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

I get lots of double row images:

 

I distinctly remember a Sam Brown Belt discussion on one of the forums I frequent, but due to me sorry searching skills, I haven't found it yet.  But I recall them realizing, with photos, that the Japanese had a Sam Brown version of belt.

 

Maybe one of our Highly Experienced and Effective Search Professionals can find it for us.  I won't try naming any names, like @Kiipu - opps did I say that out loug?!?!

[John C]

  On 8/1/2023 at 10:28 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

I get lots of double row images

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Ah. I stand corrected. Thank you for the clarification.

John C.

[Stegel]

I agree, it is a Sam Browne style of Belt. I can't comment on originality, however this style was used by officers in both IJA and IJN (land garisson troops).

Here's a few pics of the one i have. It has two buckle prongs- not three, or the middle stud.    It came with a sword captured in New Guinea.

 

[kissakai]

I will restate it came from a collector who knew his stuff, for example he did have a couple of complete uniforms

It does seem Europeanish

All the hangers have a slit on one side so they could be removed. The swivel clasp looks very European

What I can't fathom out is the unusual tong under the buckle

 

[John C]

  On 8/2/2023 at 8:25 PM, kissakai said:

What I can't fathom out is the unusual tong under the buckle

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Reminds me of a police duty belt; especially the 3 hole design. The flap prevents the two prongs from scraping on the inside belt.

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

Found the Sam Brown belt discussion over on This Warrelics Trhead.  It came up during Nick Komiya's fascinating review of the Launch of the 1937 New Navy Gunto.  @Dave R posted this pic:

 

According to Adachi, 
"Regarding the Sam Brown belts, they are regulation as per the naval landing force uniform regulations set forth in 1933. They are supposed to be worn by all NLF officers, even when the sword is not in use. They had already become a defacto standard by at least 1927, as almost every NLF officer in Shanghai had one."

[kissakai]

That's the closest match so far

 

[kissakai]

Just for fun

 

[kissakai]

I wonder if it possible to put this to bed?

Synopsis of the post

 

This this style was used by officers in both IJA and IJN (land garrison troops).

A few pics of the one i have. It has two buckle prongs- not three, or the middle stud. It came with a sword captured in New Guinea.

It looks like a British style Sam Browne belt

 

The clasps look inexpensive. In addition, the edges of the leather are not finished, 
which generally means made somewhere other than Japan. 

 

Yes, it looks pretty new. What the original seller probably meant is that it is a modern reproduction belt that can be used to hang a traditional Nihonto. 
In this case, it looks like it can be used to hang a Tachi. 

The Japanese usually used different belts to hang gunto, and this doesn't look like it would be very effective for hanging any kind of a Katana or Wakizashi. 
Should work on a Tachi, though this is hardly a traditional belt. 
Maybe was made in Japan post war to wear a Tachi ceremonially, say at a shinto temple. 

 

Reminds me of a police duty belt; especially the 3 hole design

 

The Sam Brown belts are regulation as per the naval landing force uniform regulations set forth in 1933. 

They are supposed to be worn by all NLF officers, even when the sword is not in use. 
They had already become a defacto standard by at least 1927, as almost every NLF officer in Shanghai had one.

 

1) Standard European Sam brown belt

2 )Late Japanese belt

3) Made in China as a repro

4) Made in Asia

5) Japanese WWII sword belt

 

Please vote for your choice

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

It matches the one in the last photo pretty well.  While it looks fairly new, it does have wear marks and creases on the leather where the buckle would sit during use.  We have gunto that are darn near pristine, why not a belt?  Worn by an office working guy at the end of the war?  

 

But I don't study the belts, so my opinion isn't worth much on this.

[Dave R]

"Speak of the devil, and he shall appear", and here is another two prong belt. 

[kissakai]

Thanks Dave

That is the closest yet and I think I can see the buckle flap

Just need one with a view of the swivel and we have nailed it

 

 

[Kiipu]

Note the character for large 大 ink stamped on the back of the belt.

Japanese naval sword belt