Juyo Awataguchi Listing

[Utopianarian]

The price doesn’t seem too bad for what the blade is. I don’t know. I need to give some time to really think about this one. I’ve been watching for an Awataguchi to turn up which seems not that often. Fred is widely recognized and greatly respected. My wife will kill me. Please talk me out of it. 
https://nihonto.com/1-2-23/

[John C]

You know the old saying...if you have to ask, you can't afford it. But if I had the means to drop that kind of cash on a sword, I probably wouldn't ask. Besides, it's easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission.

John C.

p.s. It really is a nice sword.

[NewB]

Buy it. This is a spectacular work imho

 

y

[Mark S.]

She will kill you for ‘something’ sooner or later… might as well make it worth it… 

[Winchester]

This commentary probably does not help; however, when will you find another one?

 

If this is something you have really wanted and it brings you joy...it moves you...then go for it...and don't look back.

 

[Gakusee]

At the moment there are 4-5 Awataguchi across different dealers in Japan and US. Perhaps a good time to consider options as indeed these are not common at all…

[Guest Simon R]

If you've got forty seven and a half grand spare for a sword, you can presumably afford something encrusted with diamonds to sweeten the pill for your potentially homicidal spouse. 😉

[ChrisM]

Quote

 My wife will kill me. Please talk me out of it. 

 

This is how we end up with "Cutting Tested" swords. I'm sure the auction house would shamelessly put a premium price tag on it... 

[Utopianarian]

With my wife it’s not so much we can’t afford it. It’s an ongoing control issue. Too much to get into it. Btw my wife is Asian. Nothing wrong with that. I always had a weakness of Asian women and very fond of them. I work for a large University Hospital in Southern California and getting retention bonus checks that were substantial to keep the medical staff from leaving during the Covid epidemic and getting bonus checks payable over 3 years with the largest most substantial one coming up. I kept putting it into physical gold but an antiquity of such rare significance such as this blade obviously is I think a wise investment. You all probably heard of that investment company that is taking share holders in rare world class artwork paintings that are outperforming the stock market and Blue chip stocks. The reason I am asking about buying it besides the wife problem which is an obstacle in itself is not an affordability problem but if in the future if I submit the blade for Tokubetsu Juyo what is the risk involved if for some reason it is attributed to a lesser school or lower level smith but higher level quality of a lesser school. It definitely has the classic characteristics of Awataguchi which seems almost certain but… I have confidence in the Juyo determination. I wouldn’t mind if a sideways attribution could happen but I’ve read stories on this board where other lesser attributions have happened especially on unsigned works.

[DoTanuki yokai]

The pictures does not show what I would be looking for in an Awaraguchi  blade but the price is much lower then I would expect for it. 

I wonder how the blades description avoid the term Nashiji.

 

 I always cringe a little when someone talks about Awataguchi and Nashiji thinking the Ji is of the Nashi. 

[1kinko]

It will probably be at the NCJSC show this weekend.

[Katsujinken]

If this blade were going to go TokuJu, I think it would be there already. 
 

Part of the reason it is not there (and the price is what it is) in my humble opinion is the length. 
 

That doesn’t mean it’s not wonderful. Just know what you’re buying. 

[Baba Yaga]

When looking at purchasing a high value sword, I personaly don't like the koshirae as a bundle ptece. Unless that koshirae has a free value in the deal. Thats just me anyway, 

Good to see our tax dollars are buying a sword. 

[Alex A]

George, the thought of sending a sword like that abroad for shinsa goes through me, id stick with the Juyo.

 

Big responsibility owning such a sword, certainly would not want ever to see any new handling marks, id cry lol

 

[Utopianarian]

A lot of interesting points to think about. Yes I think the length of the nagasa had a factor for the pricing of an Awataguchi within reach. Also very interesting of Crane leg skin quite exotic material utilized in the saya which I never heard of (I’m sure there will probably be some law enacted soon to protect Cranes). Marcus also states the fuchi he believes is not a genuine signature which is something to take into account as far as pricing and bundle price of the fittings. Goto school menuki which is nice.

Side note: Regarding tax money being utilized to buy this blade. Yes that is partially true. The hospital was partially subsidized by the Government during the epidemic. I paid my fair share of taxes as well. Over $90,000 worth. At least it would be for a good cause “Awataguchi sword” Not $10,000,000 of tax dollars for transgender studies for some 3rd World Country University that hates us  courtesy of brilliant Politicians. Yes the thought of sending the blade off for higher papers to Japan does make me nervous and I don’t know if I could handle that. Too many bad thoughts would cross my mind of what could happen. I wish I could attend the SF show I would think Fred organized the show and probably could see it first hand. Of course I will be at the Hospital or Oncall. I live there. My kids don’t even know me and I feel institutionalized. The rare times I am at my home I feel I am a guest and don’t feel like I live there and don’t know how to act or function outside of the hospital. I am sure some of you probably understand what I am talking about if your life is work. My life is at work by necessity. I do however have my “Work Wives” the nurses!!😉

[Tom Darling]

Nice!

[Baba Yaga]

George,

 

No worries, my brother works for a hospital. I think he had 4-5 vacs and got C19 three times. Front line deserve what ever they recieve monetarily.

 

For some reason bundling koshirae is some Kind of Western World marketing thing. 

 

 

[Gakusee]

George, this is from a solid, strict shinsa session (#65). You are clearly not that new to the game if you are looking at Awataguchi, so my presumption is that you are familiar with the laxer, more confusing mid-20s sessions. Shinsa 65 should be solid. 
Agreement from Tanobe sensei is a second, reliable opinion. If he did not agree, he would not have written the sayagaki. He goes one further: he attributes it to a specific smith. There are various considerations about the smith he has attributed it to - please research. 
 

To a comment made above: not all Awataguchi blades have nashiji hada. Some have larger / looser grain too. Yes, ideally you would want nashiji as that is stereotypical. 
 

One needs to register the rarity: around 150 Awataguchi Juyo swords….of them roughly 40-50 TokuJu and among the latter - only a couple of short katana. The majority are longer than this. So, length is indeed a factor here. Probably the blade characteristics / smith play a role too. 

 

if you can afford it and get a good deal from Fred, why not? Of course, there is always the danger of demonstrating wealth and affordability on the board as that might sometimes attract certain type of commentary. But if you have the ability and financial status to invest as you outline, an Awataguchi is in my humble view a worthwhile investment. 
 

Compare also to Eirakudo’s, for completeness, before you pull the trigger. 
Talk to Fred and some of the collectors with Awataguchi. 

 

[mywei]

It would probably be a good idea to at least see the blade in person if possible or at least get closer up photos and videos of the deki and jiba before pulling the trigger

 

That being said I'd agree with Michael in that Juyo 65 was a solid strict session so you know that the quality is there. The shorter length may have influenced the pricing, that being said the Eirakudo blade is similar in length (65cm) but is more expensive. https://eirakudo.sho...katana/detail/602361

 

Jealous! 👍

 

[Utopianarian]

Thank you gentlemen. Much helpful information to digest and more to research on this. I would be very happy with an ubu or longer tachi than  the shorter katanas presently being offered but nice nonetheless. However I don’t think I would spend well above six figures for one. I am far from wealthy or have the means to stretch it that far. If there are any out there by chance what is the asking price or any leads on one. Would sellers negotiate price. I would imagine there are others out there with much deeper pockets to obtain the highest quality examples.   The collecting community or buyers out there are I would think not as large as say Masterwork paintings or ww2 memorabilia. Would the demand for such a blade be high or command close to asking price for top shelf Awataguchi pieces dealing with the seller directly versus auction. Cash for one not “On hold “ as you routinely see on AOI Japan, which I would assume the buyer is on some kind of installment agreement or contingency plan.

[Utopianarian]

Michael, you might remember a blade posted on this forum by an older gentleman whom went by the handle of The Virginian. His name was George if I remember. His blade was a captured WW2 bring back from his father that turned out to be an Ichimonji Munetada. Verified courtesy of Darcy whom extended his kindness along with Ted and carried the sword to Japan to authenticate it. The blade did have some issues and he hesitated to have it polished due to issues. I messaged him a substantial cash offer which others according to Him did as well. He declined my offer at that time which means he must have declined offers as high as $30,000. There were just too many uncertainties on that blade as valuable as the blade was. The cost of restoring the blade plus the cost of the best polisher in Japan plus papers and the wait and hassle would have put it to much higher price for it which would have been a large gamble. Sometimes an already papered blade is the way to go in certain circumstances 

[Gakusee]

6 hours ago, Utopianarian said:

Michael, you might remember a blade posted on this forum by an older gentleman whom went by the handle of The Virginian. His name was George if I remember. His blade was a captured WW2 bring back from his father that turned out to be an Ichimonji Munetada. Verified courtesy of Darcy whom extended his kindness along with Ted and carried the sword to Japan to authenticate it. The blade did have some issues and he hesitated to have it polished due to issues. I messaged him a substantial cash offer which others according to Him did as well. He declined my offer at that time which means he must have declined offers as high as $30,000. There were just too many uncertainties on that blade as valuable as the blade was. The cost of restoring the blade plus the cost of the best polisher in Japan plus papers and the wait and hassle would have put it to much higher price for it which would have been a large gamble. Sometimes an already papered blade is the way to go in certain circumstances 

George, let us just say that, as a Bizen collector, I am very familiar with that Munetada blade and the full story behind it.
 

Both Darcy and Ted are good friends of mine, as well as to some extent Tanobe sensei. I cannot comment on this blade as it is not mine. All I can say is that I am very glad that the blade was restored very nicely eventually (beyond recognition) and it found a very good home. In Tanobe sensei’s own words it should easily reach Juyo status….

 

On some of the points above: using an optical analogy, one needs a complex evaluation process entailing a perspective on own acquisition / collecting objectives viewed through the financial-ability lens with a risk/reward filter against a background of what is available in the market.
The risk/rewards filter is for fine-tuning what one is comfortable with. Personally, I have no issues with a shorter blade and prefer to sacrifice length but gain quality. Hence, I sometimes acquire kodachi. Shorter katana/tachi blades are often underpriced and undervalued. Again, the filter is important as is the objective. If one aims for a TokuJu level, then more often than not, one should not sacrifice length (unless we speak of tanto or very rare-smith zaimei kodachi). But if one is content with “only” Juyo and, importantly, understands what one is buying, then length is a subsidiary issue. 
 

in relation to your question about what else is available. At the 2022 DTI I bought a blade from a good friend, a Japanese dealer. There was another superb Bizen blade which ended up in the US. He at the 2022 show had a very nice Awataguchi, which also ended up in the US. That blade was well into six figures. 
 

From memory, Kusanaginosya had an Awataguchi in the last 6-9 months. At the moment also Sato san (Katananokura) has one but that is in the $115-120k ballpark I seem to remember. 
And so on….

 

Do not rush. Take your time. Research. 
It took me 8 years to find / be able to afford / buy a Muramasa and then finally I got two. Eventually, sold them and moved on to something else. 
 

[Utopianarian]

12 hours ago, Gakusee said:

Do not rush. Take your time. Research. 
It took me 8 years to find / be able to afford / buy a Muramasa and then finally I got two. Eventually, sold them and moved on to something else. 

Thank you Michael, I will take your advice.

[Baba Yaga]

11 hours ago, Utopianarian said:

Thank you Michael, I will take your advice.

 

Smart move, thier will definitely be a better deal down the road if you so choose. 

[Tsuku]

This is a nice, but not iconic, Awataguchi… and it is one of the shortest.

 

Why not iconic? The jigane is a little more coarse and open than one would want. Exemplar Awataguchi nashiji-hada looks almost like sand or sugar in its fineness. It’s hard to see in these photographs but exemplar Kuniyasu work explodes with detail in the hataraki; this seems a bit more quiet. Might be stronger on one side than the other, but again, hard to see.

 

It is really quite short, I think certainly in the shortest five of Awataguchi daito.
 

On the other hand: it’s very attractive, the Tanobe callout to Kuniyasu is a plus, and the price is quite competitive. You could compare against Eirakudo’s example, which is a little longer and has apparently finer but also less distinct hada.

 

A top-notch Awataguchi is going to be at least twice this price, as a floor. And for the price this is pretty appealing work. We have a bit of an abundance (eek) of Awataguchi on the market right now so you can consider your options. This is a good example and IMHO worth the price of admission, but it depends on your collection aims and means, of course.

[DRDave]

George,  With the current exchange rate you should consider taking you wife on a trip to Japan.    

[Alex A]

On 8/1/2023 at 3:41 PM, Gakusee said:

 

 

 

 

Do not rush. Take your time. Research. 
It took me 8 years to find / be able to afford / buy a Muramasa and then finally I got two. Eventually, sold them and moved on to something else. 
 

 

This i find really interesting and answers a lot in regards collecting.  Not speaking for Michael but it rings some bells.

 

For some folk, the fun part of the hobby lies in the research, and tracking down of items rather than the ownership.

 

I can see why many would love to own a Muramasa but also see why sooner or later some would move on to other swords.

 

Personally, wouldn't buy for investment purposes, would buy because its a real keeper.  Keepers are rare in my book, the thought of ever selling such an item gets immediately quashed.  

 

As mentioned, enjoy the search and try avoid getting sucked in by what's available, (as stated elsewhere)

 

Lovely sword though!

 

 

Ps, asking opinions can really complicate matters. Know in your own head what you want.

 

 

 

 

[Baba Yaga]

16 hours ago, Tsuku said:

T, the Tanobe callout to Kuniyasu is a plus, and the price is quite competitive. You could compare against Eirakudo’s example, which is a little longer and has apparently finer but also less distinct hada.

 

 

In 2012 Tanobe called out the fall of the sword market and the Japanese yen. It was 13+, now it's 30- under. 

[jesse]

After reading the above entries I come to the quick realization of what an actual newb I really am.

I love my swords as they connect me to my past years of living in Japan and have never considered selling any (my kids would kill me as the swords are all spoken for by them).  And none of them are anywhere near the league of what is talked about in this thread.

But I do enjoy reading the experiences of others.

I agree with Alex's opinion above of know what you want and go for it.

 

Warm Regards,