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Fake Armourers' Tsubas in Japan?

Guest Simon R

By Guest Simon R
in Tosogu

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Guest Simon R

Guest Simon R

Posted
Posted

A seller In Japan is suddenly uploading a number of interesting armorers' tsubas - interesting, that is, until you click on them and realise they are very crudely carved and look like they are covered in black paint.

One of them is obviously copied from a very famous example with the engraving "NAMU HACHIMAN" and I've included two comparative pictures The (assumed) fake is on the top, the original is on the bottom.

 

I'll be very interested to hear what others think. (Maybe I just can't see a potential national treasure when I see one?)

 

Simon

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Spartancrest Grand Master

Spartancrest

Posted
Posted

Simon, this guy has been around for a few years now - I have a feeling he is either the 'front' for a backyard smithy or he makes his own supply. They are as you say, all the same 'patina' and the detail is not so great. Usually they are all 'Tosho' or 'Katchushi' rather simple constructions - I also think he throws the occasional "real" antique into his mix to keep people guessing. What do we think of this more elaborate piece by the same seller?

i-img1200x1192-1684643112xoe68w15.jpg

 

This one is another that is being sold by another dealer, but it bears all the same hallmarks and is likely a re-sell. If my eyes don't deceive me the crinkled background fabric is the same as in some of the images above!

If you want the links you can PM me.

i-img1170x1073-1685739876cj8npd291079.jpg

  • Like 2
Brian

Brian

Posted
Posted

Cutting tsuba out of mild steel and then burying for a while?
Not sure, but with modern technology you can churn these out 100 a day.

Guest Simon R

Guest Simon R

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

Simon, this guy has been around for a few years now - I have a feeling he is either the 'front' for a backyard smithy or he makes his own supply. They are as you say, all the same 'patina' and the detail is not so great. Usually they are all 'Tosho' or 'Katchushi' rather simple constructions - I also think he throws the occasional "real" antique into his mix to keep people guessing. What do we think of this more elaborate piece by the same seller?

i-img1200x1192-1684643112xoe68w15.jpg

 

This one is another that is being sold by another dealer, but it bears all the same hallmarks and is likely a re-sell. If my eyes don't deceive me the crinkled background fabric is the same as in some of the images above!

If you want the links you can PM me.

i-img1170x1073-1685739876cj8npd291079.jpg

Thanks Dale,

 

I've seen those and here are two more from 'Mr. Tsuba' - same cloth background and, at ¥18,000 with a lead plugged kozuka hitsu-ana, he obviously wants us to believe the first one could be the real deal.

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Guest Simon R

Guest Simon R

Posted
Posted
52 minutes ago, Spartancrest said:

Not your usual shape for that hitsu!  I wonder does he get his patina from this site? https://www.jauce.com/auction/k1099200929  or  https://buyee.jp/ite.../auction/k1099200929

Instant 200 years! :laughing:

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That has to be what he uses!

 

The higher class Japanese dealers, however, all use this stuff - so I personally liberally apply it to all my nakago (Showa to Koto in only 15 minutes)! 🤣

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Brian

Brian

Posted
Posted

This is getting into uncomfortable territory. Let's not...
ANY of the gun blue pastes and liquids will be very obvious and unnatural.

  • Like 4
Guest Simon R

Guest Simon R

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, Brian said:

This is getting into uncomfortable territory. Let's not...
ANY of the gun blue pastes and liquids will be very obvious and unnatural.

Hi Brian,

 

Dale was mocking the fake tsuba guy and it was obvious to all but the very densest of individuals that I was joking about that iron oxidiser.
However, the gun bluing was the point at which chemicals first seemed to be taken seriously.

 

SO, JUST TO CLARIFY: NEVER USE ANY CHEMICALS ON YOUR ANTIQUE TSUBA OR NIHONTO! THEY WILL DAMAGE THE IRON SURFACE AND CREATE AN AWFUL ARTIFICIAL 'PATINA', POSSIBLY DESTROYING THE ITEM'S VALUE FOREVER.

 

 

Curran Grand Master

Curran

Posted
Posted
23 hours ago, Brian said:

This is getting into uncomfortable territory. Let's not...
ANY of the gun blue pastes and liquids will be very obvious and unnatural.

 

yes, the idea of gun blue on a legit tsuba has the vomit reflex kicking in a bit.

I hate it when people hand me a heavily repatinated tsuba and ask, "what do you think" or "what school"

 

The ko-tosho / tosho  and  ko-katchushi / katchushi game is a difficult one.

There are also a lot of 1800s revival pieces that are copies of older ones. Some are very good.

 

 

  • Like 1
Teddy2808 Apprentice

Teddy2808

Posted
Posted

It’s almost astounding to me that they could be so crude. With the amount he’s made you’d think he’d have some improvement overtime. Even from one of my tsuba to the next I feel as if I make significant improvement. This guy has made so many and if he put minimal effort in he could produce good quality pieces if he also fixed his “patina”. It almost looks like he just free hand the cut outs with a jewelers saw and outs zero effort into design.

  • Like 1
Guest Simon R

Guest Simon R

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

This weeks "Armourer's" tsuba selection https://www.jauce.com/user/dj2hmyuc  a few 'new' faces :laughing:

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Now that is a new one. Jack Skellington from 'The Nightmare Before Christmas' meets 'The Punisher'. 🤣🤣🤣

Guest Simon R

Guest Simon R

Posted
Posted

I just saw this one; it looks like John Carpenter's, 'The Thing' turned itself into a tsuba. 🤣

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Guest Simon R

Guest Simon R

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

Simon I think the guy has meshed [as well as messed!] two designs he has seen on-line. :o

double circle overlap 2.jpg

Oh good lord!

Guest Simon R

Guest Simon R

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

Another "new" face has been added - https://www.jauce.com/auction/1101694243

I would suggest a "facelift" - straight into the bin!

 

¥50,000 for something obviously based on Toshi the salaryman's Friday night 'deposit' of noodles, yakitori and beer on his home subway platform? 🤔

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ROKUJURO Grand Master

ROKUJURO

Posted
Posted

In my opinion, these very bad examples pose no real threat to well informed TSUBA collectors. I cannot believe they are really sold in numbers, and I hope the guy who makes them will soon get tired.

  • Thanks 1
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