Quality question

[Nicholas]

Hello all,

     
     I know this is going to be a hard question to get a solid answer to. But here we go. While reading and trying to take in as much information as I can about Nihonto. One question keeps coming to mind. While judging swords by a certain smith how would one tell if the blade you’re studying is a higher, lower, or average quality work from said smith if you only have access to the one blade and looking at other examples from that smith through books and internet pictures. Also if 3 blades are Tokubetsu Hozon by said smith are all 3 blades equal in level of quality. Sorry if this is a silly question it’s been on my mind for a while now. 

 

Thank you,

Nick

[akednb]

Just discussed this with someone yesterday lol. The paper could not guarantee the similar quality. My personal experience, there were 2 tachi from the exact same smith at tokubetsu-jyuyo...but they are priced more than triple difference. IMHO the cheaper one also in great quality and deserved toku-jyu designation. Seeing them in hand I kindda understand why. All factors like work quality, deki, style, health, length, nagago, condition, mei, denrai, popularity and completeness are factors we include for "quality" as a whole...and yea one of the toku-ho blade you see might have be a toku-jyu candidate...who knows?

[Bugyotsuji]

No two blades by the same smith can be the same, even with the same material. Like two Picassos.

 

I have a friend who used to be a Bizen potter. He has dismantled his kiln, and now spends his days doing brush and ink paintings of a singe bird in long grass. They are very good, these paintings, but he himself, never satisfied, continues to move towards a sumi-e bird that will finally please his artistic instinct. I wonder if he will sign it, and how?

 

Perhaps this is only one artistic phase in his long life.

 

Swordsmiths could take a special order for a client, and depending on the results, insert a long and detailed name and date onto the one he/she liked best. Or even a 一 'one' stroke.  What would he see in it? Why would he choose one above another? Would the client, or even a third party have chosen a different one?

 

What are your preferences in a sword blade?

[Nicholas]

6 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

What are your preferences in a sword blade?

 Hi piers,

          I guess I don’t really have a specific preference in terms of hada, hamon, shape. As long as it’s done well in my eyes. I mostly collect Shinto swords. Mainly because they tend to be signed and there is plenty of information and documented examples of most swordsmiths. It makes it easier to study for me. But it is still unclear to me what an average work and an above average work is and how to tell the difference.

[Bugyotsuji]

Nicholas, you really need to join your local sword society and handle as many blades as possible. Also chat with dealers at sword shows about your developing interest. 
 

When you pick up a blade it should allure you, or attract you in some way. Then you can research why.
 

Great question, by the way!

[GeorgeLuucas]

Love the analogy with two different Picasso paintings. Especially because painting and Nihonto are both in the fine art category 

I like to think, being able to recognize quality, is akin to getting into fine wine or beer.
At first, you won't be able to tell the difference between a $20 dollar bottle and a $200 bottle. But as you research, and try a variety of wine of all qualities, you might slowly begin to recognize what makes wine "good", in addition to what your particular tastes are. You'll also likely learn to recognize what makes wine BAD

After hundreds of hours, tastings, and dedicated study you might even begin to recognize terroir, vintages, or specific ingredients. You might find that you like Pinot, but not Cabernet. You might find that a winery with less-than-average wines, also makes one of your favorites!

Anyway, I also struggle to recognize quality, but I hope to get there someday.

Best of luck,
Cheers!
-Your friendly neighborhood brewmaster


 

[Franco D]

17 hours ago, Nicholas said:

While judging swords by a certain smith how would one tell if the blade you’re studying is a higher, lower, or average quality work from said smith if you only have access to the one blade and looking at other examples from that smith through books and internet pictures. Also if 3 blades are Tokubetsu Hozon by said smith are all 3 blades equal in level of quality.

 

First, not a silly question at all. In fact, these are questions that should be considered when nihonto shopping.

There's simply no substitute for hands on study of quality nihonto in excellent polish. Which means joining and attending study group meetings and clubs. It means traveling to sword shows. 

Blades by the same smith. Many years ago at one of our local sword meetings an absolutely top quality 1st generation Hisamichi wakizashi was displayed. From that point on I had kept an eye  out for such a blade. Over time I've come across 5 first generation Hisamichi blades on dealer sites or at shows. Only one of the five came close to the quality of the first blade, even though some of them were TokuHo and in excellent polish as well. In the end I never did buy a Hisamichi, but always enjoyed looking.

If you spend enough time with nihonto one will find that this holds true for many smiths. Exceptional work is exceptional work. Recognizing and finding exceptional pieces is part of the challenge. 

 

Regards,

[Toryu2020]

In our simple kantei-kai in San Francisco the first question the student is asked to answer is always quality. Choose A+ A B C or D. How does one do this when you have only seen three or four good swords? Well, use that as your database, is this new sword as good or better than those four you have seen? Assign it a quality and move on to other parts of the kantei. If you find later than others have rated the sword way higher or way lower than you then ask what do they see that adds to the quality. Do this one by one with many swords and some day you'll have an impressive database all your own that you can call up and that is based on your own assessment...

 

-t

[Nicholas]

11 hours ago, Bugyotsuji said:

Nicholas, you really need to join your local sword society and handle as many blades as possible.

     Piers, I would love to but unfortunately I have yet to find one in the New York area east coast United States.

 

6 hours ago, Franco D said:

If you spend enough time with nihonto one will find that this holds true for many smiths. Exceptional work is exceptional work. Recognizing and finding exceptional pieces is part of the challenge. 

 Franco, I indeed agree. I think in my collection so far the best quality swords I have are 2 katana. One Izumi No Kami Fujiwara Kunisada and the other a Echigo No Kami Fujiwara Kunitomo. I have other swords that I think are good but not in good enough polish to really tell.

 

5 hours ago, Toryu2020 said:

In our simple kantei-kai in San Francisco the first question the student is asked to answer is always quality. Choose A+ A B C or D. How does one do this when you have only seen three or four good swords? Well, use that as your database, is this new sword as good or better than those four you have seen? Assign it a quality and move on to other parts of the kantei. If you find later than others have rated the sword way higher or way lower than you then ask what do they see that adds to the quality. Do this one by one with many swords and some day you'll have an impressive database all your own that you can call up and that is based on your own assessment...

 

-t

Thomas, great information. I really need to find a sword society or club. Make some friends that I can talk to about swords. Maybe a mentor of some sort. Somewhere I can see more swords in hand.

[Franco D]

3 hours ago, Nicholas said:

I really need to find a sword society or club.

 

https://www.ny-tokenkai.org/

[rematron]

I really wish there was a sword club in the Seattle area.  I'm surprised there's not.

[GeorgeLuucas]

25 minutes ago, rematron said:

I really wish there was a sword club in the Seattle area.  I'm surprised there's not.

I wish the same in the Portland area

 

maybe… if there’s enough of us in the general northwest USA, one can be created with less frequent meetups 

 

sorry for being off topic to the OP

[Nicholas]

12 hours ago, Franco D said:

 

https://www.ny-tokenkai.org/

Thanks. I am definitely going to check it out. 

 

1 hour ago, GeorgeLuucas said:

sorry for being off topic to the OP

I don’t mind. I think we need more sword clubs and societies, shows etc. in more states.

[Toryu2020]

You might contact Bannister Sensei - he might know of a group...

 

AiShinKai Fudo Myoo-Ji Dojo - Martial Arts, Cultural Arts, Iaido

[Alex A]

I like a particular smith and ive been looking at his blades for some years now.

 

You know before you see the price and then the price confirms your thoughts that the blade you are looking at is not one of the better examples.

 

A Choji-midare hamon, like fire. When he did it well it was consistent, quality on both sides of the blade. With a lot that you come across, there's always a part of it done well and you wish the rest of the blade was as good.

 

Sometimes the Nioiguchi becomes weak in places, parts of the hamon appear unintentional. 

 

When you have looked at enough swords by a certain smith, you get an idea

 

 

 

 

[Jacques D.]

On 7/18/2023 at 5:01 AM, Nicholas said:

Hello all,

     
     I know this is going to be a hard question to get a solid answer to. But here we go. While reading and trying to take in as much information as I can about Nihonto. One question keeps coming to mind. While judging swords by a certain smith how would one tell if the blade you’re studying is a higher, lower, or average quality work from said smith if you only have access to the one blade and looking at other examples from that smith through books and internet pictures. Also if 3 blades are Tokubetsu Hozon by said smith are all 3 blades equal in level of quality. Sorry if this is a silly question it’s been on my mind for a while now. 

 

Thank you,

Nick

 

 

It takes years of serious study (not dilettante) and you need to have had hundreds of swords in your hand before you can begin to tell the difference in level between 2 swords of the same smith.

[Alex A]

Utter nonsense.

[Nicholas]

9 hours ago, Alex A said:

I like a particular smith and ive been looking at his blades for some years now.

 

You know before you see the price and then the price confirms your thoughts that the blade you are looking at is not one of the better examples.

 

A Choji-midare hamon, like fire. When he did it well it was consistent, quality on both sides of the blade. With a lot that you come across, there's always a part of it done well and you wish the rest of the blade was as good.

 

Sometimes the Nioiguchi becomes weak in places, parts of the hamon appear unintentional. 

 

When you have looked at enough swords by a certain smith, you get an idea

 

 

 

 

 I have a Izumi No Kami Kunisada katana and when I’m researching other swords by the same smith I always wonder where the sword I own ranks in quality. I’ve read that even his lesser quality swords are still above average works. But it is hard to judge from pictures online. I’ve never had another kunisada sword side by side to compare. So it always leaves me wondering.

[Alex A]

Hi Nicholas, briefly.

 

Its not a one size fits all. The smith i mention was capable of excellent work but at the same time some of his work could be described as average in comparison. There was a lack of consistency in his work. In that respect, quality is much easier to differentiate in images, and I'm talking excellent images only. Lesser quality work stands out like a sore thumb.

 

You have to consider the state of polish, health of the blade. No good comparing an healthy thick blade that has seen little polish to one with a 5mm Kasane or whatever.  A bad polisher will make a good sword look bad, and so on.

 

I'm not saying you don't need to see swords in hand, I've owned and seen enough to know what im seeing in images and don't need to fly off to Tokyo or whatever. Jeez, great images are a blessing with my eyesight!.

 

You need to see more Kunisada in hand though, by the sounds of it, then you will be in a better position to find you bearings. Look closely at the work online though and read as much as you can with regards his better swords. Look at the lower priced swords and work out why they are priced low.

 

As said, not a one size fits all, there are times when you have to see swords in hand.

 

 

[Jacques D.]

On 7/28/2023 at 4:47 AM, Nicholas said:

 I have a Izumi No Kami Kunisada katana

 

 Shodai or nidai (Inoue Shinkai) ?  Because there is a huge difference in quality between them.

[Nicholas]

1 hour ago, Jacques D. said:

Shodai or nidai (Inoue Shinkai) ?  Because there is a huge difference in quality between them.

Shodai. Nidai prices are out of my league. Here’s some pictures of the sword.

[Alex A]

Its Ok learning about the quality of your sword and i understand your curiosity

 

When i think about similar swords, side by side, by the same smith, made at the same time that look like one another, i cant help feeling like wtf does it matter.

 

Pick the best one , side by side you will know it when you see it. You don't need big long eyebrows or whatever like the wiseman on the mountain.

 

Cant remember the number of pages in Connoisseur's or whatever that describes blade features, not that many and you don't find that many features in one blade. Its not rocket science, though some folks think its quantum physics or sumert.

 

Sometimes i think some folks think Japanese blades are somewhat magical from the BS that is spurted out, like some kind of mystical Excalibur or something, heading into phenomenon territory

 

Usually from some kind of over enthusiastic Elitist that likes to over complicate things. (because it suits) Its only around a 3cm piece of steel for gods sake, we are not mapping the Amazon. If you hang around here long enough you will find that those that spurt such stories are usually the ones that are terrible at kantei and don't know their ass from their elbow (so to speak), stating Edo when obviously Koto and so on.

 

Never mind stop oil, stop the Nihonto bullshit.

 

OP, not aimed at you, but a useful tip

[Nicholas]

2 hours ago, Alex A said:

 

Its Ok learning about the quality of your sword and i understand your curiosity

 

When i think about similar swords, side by side, by the same smith, made at the same time that look like one another, i cant help feeling like wtf does it matter.

 

It was just out of curiosity. I personally buy swords I like by swordsmiths I’m interested in. If it checks all the right boxes for me and it’s affordable I’ll get it. Though, I can see how people can start to over complicate things for themselves when it comes to purchasing a sword by the smith they want.

[Jacques D.]

13 hours ago, Nicholas said:

Shodai. Nidai prices are out of my league. Here’s some pictures of the sword.

 

Can you share a clear high resolution picture of the nakago, it could be a daimei by the nidai or by Kaga Sadanori (according the Shinkai taikan, the nidai wasn't the only one to make daimei for the shodai). I'm sorry but the pictures of the toshin,as usual, show nothing which is worthwhile, so i can't say anything about the quality of this sword.

[Nicholas]

6 hours ago, Jacques D. said:

Can you share a clear high resolution picture of the nakago

Sure here you go.

[Baba Yaga]

13 hours ago, Alex A said:

I

Usually from some kind of over enthusiastic Elitist that likes to over complicate things. (because it suits) Its only around a 3cm piece of steel for gods sake, we are not mapping the Amazon. If you hang around here long enough you will find that those that spurt such stories are usually the ones that are terrible at kantei and don't know their ass from their elbow (so to speak), stating Edo when obviously Koto and so on.

 

Never mind stop oil, stop the Nihonto bullshit.

 

OP, not aimed at you, but a useful tip

 

This wouldn't be such a small hobbey if that weren't true. If it weren't for mass confussion and some kind of self proclaimed nobility no one would profit. Someone has to buy all the lower quility "stuff" so the higher quility survive. It takes a while to figure it out 

[Jacques D.]

It's the shodai, it's a pity because the daimei by the nidai are of superior quality. 
Talking of quality, one of the major criteria is the uniqueness of the folding. Average quality swords often show tiny defects in the welding of the folds; these are obviously totally invisible on photos and an untrained eye will not see them when holding the blade. Of course, this is only one parameter among many to be taken into account.