Question whether a Hamon should extend into the Nakago {in the area of the Habaki} on a Suriage blade.

[MHC]

Hello all,

Been awhile since I have posted anything, too busy building a house.

 

Anyway, I've been curious for quite some time now, regarding the Hamon continuing into the Nakago on an older suriage or O-Suriage blade. I would think that if a blade has been shortened more than once during it's life, and of course depending on the amount of shortening. One would think you would expect to see the original Hamon continuing into the new Nakago {in the area of the Habaki}.

 

If a Suriage blade has 2, 3 or even 4 Mekugi-ana holes, wouldn't one not expect to at least see some blades where the Hamon continues into the Nakago {area of the Habaki}? Especially if the first Mekugi-ana hole is very near the end of the Nakago. I have seen blades with even just a partial Mekugi-and hole left on the end, surely the Hamon should present itself into the Nakago on a blade such as this.

I have only seen one blade where it was clearly apparent that the original Hamon did indeed continue into the Nakago.

 

I know that if the blade was damaged, then shortened and possibly re-tempered, you would not see this feature. However, to the well trained eye {not myself unfortunately}, other telltale features give away a re-tempered blade, so no need to comment about these.

 

Thanks for humoring me, as I ponder this.

 

Mark

[Brian]

But we DO see the hamon continuing into the nakago. Most of the time. If it's in polish.
And if the machi were moved up. If only a little suriage, then no change. But if the machi were moved, then we usually do see the hamon continue. What does affect that though is the patina that makes the hamon indistinct in that area. And the fact that I think often heat is used a bit to soften the machi area to allow for work to be done moving the notches upwards. In that case, the hamon may be weaker in that area.
But what makes you think we don't see the hamon continue? If I saw an obviously o-suriage blade where the hamon clearly ends near the habaki, I'd be suspecting retempter.

[MHC]

Hello Brian,

 

The main problem for me, is that I am only viewing blades via online photos, especially those from countries abroad, which is never ideal. Furthermore, most online photos never seem to dwell on that particular area, always at the edges of the photo or non-existent.

 

It's so sketchy for me to try and decipher what's what with a particular blade when not in hand, compounded by my inexperience, just makes purchase decisions very difficult.

 

I'm unfortunately very skeptical of humans in the first place, so I'm always looking for faults and problems. So when my inexperienced eye perceives something that might be out of place, my monkey brain instantly says run away. However, I don't think that is always a fair reaction, thus the question that I posed to all here.

 

Thank you for your input.

 

Mark Cannaday

[Matsunoki]

9 minutes ago, MHC said:

 

I'm unfortunately very skeptical of humans in the first place, so I'm always looking for faults and problems.

Mark, that is a very sensible “start point”  but, on this Forum, we have some excellent dealers that take excellent images of excellent swords and that makes it far safer. 

However when you venture out into the wilderness of the wider world your caution is very justified. 
In my opinion it is near impossible to judge a blade from images especially if the polish has a Hadori finish. Often you cannot even discern the true hamon nor any other activity details.  A multitude of problems can remain concealed and what you are buying often becomes a total lottery. My advice…..ask loads of questions, ask for extra images etc…..the reaction you get back will tell you everything! 
All the best.

Colin

 

[SteveM]

I thought Robert Hughes' and Paul Kremers' "Super Samurai Sale" video was very good at showing points like this. I recommend you take an hour of your day when you won't be distracted, and watch this video, looking out for areas of the blade like this. It shows several blades, two of which are suriage, and it shows the difference in the nakago/hamon transition very well. Since its a slightly long video, you might just want to zero in on a section like this https://youtu.be/jyDGPlqNSsQ?t=1430 . This video is not intended to be a lecture on kantei points, but I thought it was quite good at showing some parts of swords that often are hard to understand just by looking at photos in old texts.  

 

[Baba Yaga]

 Suriage blades with a few Mekugi-ana holes ( used to be )  not that desirable unless attributed to a better than average smith. Again, looks like the bar may have changed. 

At $5k it's priced right. 

[Shugyosha]

Hi Mark, 

It’s an “it depends” answer: if it’s a quality suriage then the hamon should be removed after the ha machi.

 

That smiths used yakidashi and fumbari to reduce the consequences of stress on the part of the blade nearest the tsuka suggests that increasing durability in that portion of the blade added to functionality. 

 

Where time was short or the blade wasn’t worth the effort the nakago would simply be cut and a new mekugi ana drilled/ bored. 

[MHC]

Thank you all for your replies, all useful inputs.

 

John J., your description both make complete sense, and is more consistent with what I have seen in pictures on quality, higher end blades.

 

Sometimes I just wish swords were like classic cars, if the easy to see serial numbers match, the body, trim, paint and interior colors and options match the door tag...then bingo you have the real Macoy.

 

Such is not the case with swords, but I guess where would be the fun in that!

 

Mark Cannaday

[Alex A]

Mark, even with Ubu swords this can get complicated depending on who made it and when.

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/41820-the-wonderful-world-of-where-the-hamon-ends/#comment-428734

 

Bit more open minded these days.