San Francisco Japanese Sword Show

[Steve Waszak]

Agree with Thomas completely.  For twice that I'd have snapped it up in an instant.  Hirata Hikozo's guards are the ultimate in Tea-Culture soft-metal tsuba.  And it must be remembered, Hosokawa Tadaoki, in addition to being a very active and successful military commander who saw dozens of battles in the field, was a very serious Tea Man.  This mattered -- a lot -- in the times in which he lived.  

[Gakusee]

In response to Steve: yours is a wonderful post and very educational. I agree with all of that.

 

Yet…

 

The Awataguchi worked directly for Gotoba, a much more influential figure than the Hosokawa…. When you put that into perspective and context then things look different. That is early Kamakura period, some 4 centuries before the Hikozo…

 

 

[Steve Waszak]

Hi Michael,

 

I think we're saying the same thing, though.   Context matters, yes?  I don't see how "things look different" based on your example.  If anything, it reinforces my point.  

 

I would say, too, that one can't as easily compare blades and fittings.  Blades were seen as important creations and signed (as such) from very early times, as you indicate, while the first regularly signed tsuba (which practice points to their being seen as elevated objects vis-a-vis their prior reception and primary function as simply "dogu" or "tools," for the most part) didn't appear until the latter half of the 16th century.  

 

But I like your example, because it strengthens the idea of considering objects not just for their material substance, but for their context and resulting cultural and historical importance.  An additional statement to make here would be to note that such esteemed and, one would think, learned men as Gotoba and Hosokawa Tadaoki chose these craftsmen (among the many they could have selected) to work for them.  In other words, I think we ought to be considering the fact that certain craftsmen, by virtue of their having been singled out for the honor of working for (being retained by) great lords (or emperors), have their importance elevated in the world of swords and fittings.  This is part of the context of which I speak.   

[Gakusee]

  On 8/10/2023 at 9:43 PM, Steve Waszak said:

Hi Michael,

 

I think we're saying the same thing, though.   Context matters, yes?  I don't see how "things look different" based on your example.  If anything, it reinforces my point.  

 

I would say, too, that one can't as easily compare blades and fittings.  Blades were seen as important creations and signed (as such) from very early times, as you indicate, while the first regularly signed tsuba (which practice points to their being seen as elevated objects vis-a-vis their prior reception and primary function as simply "dogu" or "tools," for the most part) didn't appear until the latter half of the 16th century.  

 

But I like your example, because it strengthens the idea of considering objects not just for their material substance, but for their context and resulting cultural and historical importance.  An additional statement to make here would be to note that such esteemed and, one would think, learned men as Gotoba and Hosokawa Tadaoki chose these craftsmen (among the many they could have selected) to work for them.  In other words, I think we ought to be considering the fact that certain craftsmen, by virtue of their having been singled out for the honor of working for (being retained by) great lords (or emperors), elevates their importance in the world of swords and fittings.  This is part of the context of which I speak.   

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agreed 

 

was just contextualising the Awataguchi blade at the show vs the Hikozo tsuba

 

both worthy but different people will ascribe different values to them…. 

[Brian]

I’m with Steve and Tom. When it is in front of you, the technique, skill and patina are incredible. It really is remarkable both in terms of its importance and technique. While I still don’t claim to “get” most tsuba masterpieces, seeing them in hand really was very different from online pics. 

[Matsunoki]

Still trying to understand the Hikozo tsuba….please humour me🙂

? Are those enormous hitsu original or later enlarged/modified? (The inner edges bordering the seppadai suggest maybe a different form originally?)

? What was it originally intended to be mounted on? There is a suggestion that it is of large size but difficult to judge from the image.

Many thanks. Colin

[Toryu2020]

Colin -

Those are not hitsu but part of the design. There are cut outs to the seppadai to accomodate kozuka and kogai and they may be later. It is of average size, I would say it was for a katana...

 

-t

[Curran]

Just see them in person. Your opinion might change.

 There was an Isaac Asimov short story about a scientist that wanted payment in the form of a certain tea cup, in order to prevent certain catastrophe from happening to Earth. The govt agents thought he was nuts. When they actually acquired (*stole*) the tea cup and saw it in person, one of the agents considered breaking the deal-> the Earth be D@mned.

 

I never thought much of the original Kaneiye tsuba, though the books all go on about him as Best of the Best. Then I saw maybe 10 of them in a special display room at one of the DTI.

Nearly 180 degree flip for me? 15 years of looking at tsuba and I suddenly understood their appeal.

 

$70k worth for the Ito-san Hikozo? Maybe aggressive. I'd rather have one of Fred's.

I'd slightly prefer a certain type of used sports car over the Hikozo, but I get closer and closer to selling down 5-10 tsuba and just buying one of the Hikozo.

Not there yet, and don't know if I ever will get there.

 

 

[Matsunoki]

  On 8/11/2023 at 3:52 PM, Toryu2020 said:

There are cut outs to the seppadai to accomodate kozuka and kogai and they may be later.

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Thanks Thomas, it was these possible later modifications that caused me to consider exactly what had occurred and in what order.

 

  On 8/11/2023 at 4:07 PM, Curran said:

Your opinion might change.

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Curran hello and thanks for your time. …….my understanding is certainly changing! Beauty and “value” (aesthetic or monetary) will always be in the eye of the beholder. Until asking I had no idea about the contextual connection to “the way of tea” but now I do the wabisabi undertones of the tsuba make a bit more sense. As you say, see it in person to get the true feeling. Juyo is starting to make more sense to me now. I wasn’t really challenging the asking price…everything is worth what someone will pay and sometimes if you fly a kite you catch the wind.

[Curran]

  On 8/11/2023 at 4:27 PM, Matsunoki said:

Thanks Thomas, it was these possible later modifications that caused me to consider exactly what had occurred and in what order.

 

Curran hello and thanks for your time. …….my understanding is certainly changing! Beauty and “value” (aesthetic or monetary) will always be in the eye of the beholder. Until asking I had no idea about the contextual connection to “the way of tea” but now I do the wabisabi undertones of the tsuba make a bit more sense. As you say, see it in person to get the true feeling. Juyo is starting to make more sense to me now. I wasn’t really challenging the asking price…everything is worth what someone will pay and sometimes if you fly a kite you catch the wind.

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You think one way, until something changes it.  Up until yesterday, I hated Brie Larson the actress. Then I saw a number of clips or her singing. Suddenly I thought much better of her.

        As someone long self employed, I've had some serious financial ups and downs over the years. When the belly is full, sometimes the beauty of something like a Hikozo makes a lot more sense than when you've been starving 6 weeks. The govt can always print more money and has since 2008 vs very unique artworks that transcend our small existence vs the need to eat and find shelter. Between those 3 corners, I try to tri-locate from year to year.

 

When you've looked at somewhere between 1 to 10 million tsuba over 25 years, the Hikozo and the Kaneiye come back to you as more and more appealing as you mentally throw away many of the others. That doesn't mean I don't have a few sub $1000 tsuba that are worth their weight in gold to me.

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

  On 8/11/2023 at 5:16 PM, Curran said:

You think one way, until something changes it.  Up until yesterday, I hated Brie Larson the actress. Then I saw a number of clips or her singing. Suddenly I thought much better of her.

        As someone long self employed, I've had some serious financial ups and downs over the years. When the belly is full, sometimes the beauty of something like a Hikozo makes a lot more sense than when you've been starving 6 weeks. The govt can always print more money and has since 2008 vs very unique artworks that transcend our small existence vs the need to eat and find shelter. Between those 3 corners, I try to tri-locate from year to year.

 

When you've looked at somewhere between 1 to 10 million tsuba over 25 years, the Hikozo and the Kaneiye come back to you as more and more appealing as you mentally throw away many of the others. That doesn't mean I don't have a few sub $1000 tsuba that are worth their weight in gold to me.

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Im glad you came around on Brie Larson

[Jussi Ekholm]

Thanks for amazing reports from the show and pictures guys. I am very happy Brian had a great trip

 

Only thing that I dislike in US shows from what I've seen are sword bundles on the tables. I understand that dealers want to maximize the amount of items they have available but for me personally it gives an impression that those items are not thought highly of. For me it is important to treat item as valuable even if it is a cheaper item of less value.

[1kinko]

I usually take a bunch of photos, but only ended up with a few this year. This was the best, but way beyond my means- so I’ll have to up my skills with an accurate utsushi.

 

[1kinko]

One more, similar. My taste revealed!

[Bazza]

Well, as a complement to the discussion here is the Hikozo utsushi I bought from Ford some years ago.  Passing time has not diminished its immense appeal to me.

 

BaZZa.

 

[Vermithrax16]

A few more pics, including a signed Hirata tsuba:

[SteveM]

The bamboo and tiger fuchi/kashira (Jōchiku) was one of my favorite pieces at the show.

 

[Matsunoki]

  On 8/13/2023 at 5:51 PM, Vermithrax16 said:

A few more pics, including a signed Hirata tsuba:

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'

 

  On 8/13/2023 at 6:29 PM, SteveM said:

The bamboo and tiger fuchi/kashira (Jōchiku

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Jeremiah/Steve

Just for my “interest”, can you recall the price tags on the eagle/monkey and tiger/bamboo fuchi kashira please?

I would have been very sorely tempted. Hardly ever see such nice things in the UK.

Many thanks

 Colin

[Vermithrax16]

  On 8/13/2023 at 6:35 PM, Matsunoki said:

'

 

Jeremiah/Steve

Just for my “interest”, can you recall the price tags on the eagle/monkey and tiger/bamboo fuchi kashira please?

I would have been very sorely tempted. Hardly ever see such nice things in the UK.

Many thanks

 Colin

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I didn't ask. I'm sure quite a bit as they were not "really" for sale. Just for exhibition.

[SteveM]

I didn't ask either. They were at Mike Yamasaki's table. He had two sets of the eagle/monkey fittings. One was by Ōmori Teruhide (if my memory serves me well), and the other was a a lesser artist. 

[SteveM]

Some more shots.

So many swords with Tanobe sayagaki. Also, so many rare books available at these shows. Even if you don't have $70,000 for a Hikozo tsuba, you could spend a couple hundred dollars on books and greatly augment your knowledge of swords and tsuba. 

 

 

[1kinko]

There were a bunch at $2000.  The Ishiguro eagles I posted weren’t priced but one of Mike’s said somewhere around $22,000.

[Brian]

  On 8/12/2023 at 5:58 PM, Jussi Ekholm said:

Thanks for amazing reports from the show and pictures guys. I am very happy Brian had a great trip

 

Only thing that I dislike in US shows from what I've seen are sword bundles on the tables. I understand that dealers want to maximize the amount of items they have available but for me personally it gives an impression that those items are not thought highly of. For me it is important to treat item as valuable even if it is a cheaper item of less value.

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Jussi,
That one or 2 image posted really was the exception rather than the rule. 90% of the swords at the show were properly displayed, either on stands or on tables separated. I can't remember many dealers with them piled up, and the one or 2 that did, had too little table space and they were still handled respectfully.

[Infinite_Wisdumb]

  On 8/13/2023 at 5:51 PM, Vermithrax16 said:

A few more pics, including a signed Hirata tsuba:

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LOVE these!

[Jussi Ekholm]

It is good to hear that I was wrong in my assumption, thanks for clearing it up Brian

[Gakusee]

  On 8/13/2023 at 6:35 PM, Matsunoki said:

'

 

Jeremiah/Steve

Just for my “interest”, can you recall the price tags on the eagle/monkey and tiger/bamboo fuchi kashira please?

I would have been very sorely tempted. Hardly ever see such nice things in the UK.

Many thanks

 Colin

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good taste there Colin ! 

[Ed]

  On 8/10/2023 at 5:12 PM, Matsunoki said:

One question I would pose to the forum ……if we saw this tsuba on a stand at a show or fair with no supporting papers, no nice box etc, just sitting there with a price tag of $2500……how many would buy it?

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Me! I would without hesitation.

[1kinko]

Great Ed- it would take me about a week to make a fine utsushi of this, but I don’t work for that low a salary. Expect inquiries from China. What did PT Barnum say?

[1kinko]

My only complaint about the SF sword show is there was no list of NMB attendees and there were quite a few I would have liked to have met. I only found out about them from Brian’s post-meeting post.  Let’s get this together for next years meeting. In fact, how about a list at every meeting?

[Stephen]

Sad Brian's not on track yet to see some of his pic n table.

Hopefully next week