Are there any good dealers of papered swords in the UK ?

[Jon]

Just wondering if anyone knows of any good shops in the Uk for papered Nihonto, there does not seem to be a lot around UK wise ? As I’m not sure I’m quite ready to import blades myself.

 

 

[Matsunoki]

Jon, 

Sadly the  short answer to your question is “no”. There are very few dealers in the UK let alone any dealing in papered swords. Finding anything good often relies on knowing the right people, networking, trawling  auctions, sifting through stuff at Arms Fairs etc.  The odd diamond does turn up but then you discover that everyone else has likely seen it as well!

Further, many swords already in the UK from “the old days” or old collections seem to have the older style of discredited  green papers (I have a few of those) which most people tend to dismiss as totally worthless. ( I don’t agree fully unless it’s a “big name” in which case it’s likely spurious)

You mention importing blades…..again sadly, that is becoming more and more fraught with danger. Buying a sword without seeing it is a massive risk in itself but add to that the increasing problems with carriers and our own nightmare Border Force activities and it becomes a bit of a lottery.  I know some have had a trouble free import experience but others have had their swords confiscated, lost, stolen,  damaged etc

Always best to buy a sword face to face from someone you know and trust…..you will sleep better.  If it goes wrong you can only blame yourself then🙂
Happy hunting.

All the best. Colin

 

[Alex A]

Hi Jon, 

 

Not really, as far as im aware. 

 

Sticking within the UK really has its limits. You do come across swords with papers but what are the chances its a sword you want ?

 

You should first find out what blades interest you then ask in the wanted section below if anyone has anything in the UK with papers.

 

Welcome to UK collecting.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jon]

Cheers guys, that’s a shame, looks like I may have to risk all the importing hurdles, there are some really will priced swords for sale on the Japanese sites.

 

Any advice on importing do and don’t a ?

 

jon

[Gakusee]

Well, have you checked Eddy Wertheim of the Japanese Gallery in Kensington or Pablo Kunz from Unique Japan (who people do not realise is based and lives in the U.K.) and so on? Peter Yorke sadly passed away… There are probably another 5-6 U.K.-based people from whom you can buy papered swords and they operate on a “semi-professional” basis. There are also the various antique dealers who specialise in more than just Asian art eg Peter Finer and his sons and the like. 
Actually, there are sources (including the auction houses with their biannual Japanese auctions) from where you can buy papered swords in the U.K. . Also, members of the ToKen Society buy and sell from each other too. 

 

https://new.uniquejapan.com/home/

japanesegallery.com

peterfiner.com

 

 

NB: I am not endorsing anyone mentioned above and have no relation to these apart from knowing some of them. Caveat emptor and make your own conclusions. 

 

[Paz]

Hi Jon as mentioned above it's a lottery. 

 

If you have a martial arts license or practice iaido then the odds are better. 

 

Otherwise you need to make sure that the parcel has all the correct info. Even then border force can seize it and ask you for more information via restoration request. 

 

But it is legal to import Japanese swords provided they are antiques or handmade using traditional methods. 

Or you have a martial arts licence. I've been fine for the 3 swords I did mange import. And issues in others. 

 

Your best bet is to go to the arms fair in Birmingham. Again as mentioned its a small circle, and you will have to meet people. 

 

The other place is lanes armoury in brighton who have a big shop. And another in the uk down south.

 

Regards 

Paz

[Shugyosha]

I'm quite happy to disrecommend the Lanes Armoury - they are way overpriced and very short on detail about their blades.

 

I would, however, recommend joining the To-ken Society as a means of expanding your contact and knowledge-base.

 

Obviously the appeal of papered swords is the safety net that authentication provides but if you can improve your own appreciation, particularly of what sells in terms of quality at what price point, then they can become less relevant.

[Alex A]

Dread to think how many blades are now knocking about in the UK with crappy polishes, find it a depressing place to shop, being honest.

 

Not saying all polishes that have been done in the UK are poor, just a vast array of out of polish or badly polished swords, some of which have amazing original fittings, shame.

 

Its been said many times that you should hold a sword in hand when buying.  With good pictures, experience and a willing and helpful seller, for me that needn't be the case . You should be able to work out what a sword is like from good images and write-up, like you see on some of the better sites.

 

Understand your concerns about shipping. Must be said that most stuff gets here ok. 

 

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

  On 7/15/2023 at 8:37 AM, Alex A said:

 

Understand your concerns about shipping. Must be said that most stuff gets here ok. 

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Hi Alex

I’ve just received a package from Japan clearly labelled as “Antique over 150 years” with an excellent description of the contents and the full value declared but customs have smacked on 20% Import Tax where it should be 5%. Now they want AN EXACT DATE OF MANUFACTURE……..they really are bl***y idiots who seem to delight in causing problems where no problems exist. BUT I have also had a sword arrive from Japan that didn’t even go through customs and got here in 3 days……..crazy “lottery”.

  On 7/15/2023 at 7:10 AM, Shugyosha said:

I'm quite happy to disrecommend the Lanes Armoury - they are way overpriced and very short on detail about their blades.

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John, I  totally agree. 

[Alex A]

Hi Colin, 

 

Lottery as you point out, depends whether there is an idiot n duty or not,

 

Very annoying, that happened to me once and i gave up on trying to get it back, as moved house at the time and had too much on.

 

Besides that, only one other episode with customs where they held it for a short while

[Shugyosha]

Hi Jon,

Sorry, should have said that I'm treasurer of the To-ken Society and completely shameless about promoting it and touting for membership.

[Paz]

@Matsunoki

I've had to give the exact date on 2 swords that arrived via a form.  Ie 1600 or 1500 ect. Doesant have to be exact but rough dating. 

 

@Shugyosha

 

Lol also a member and hope to see you on a zoom conference or maybe at an event. 

 

Regards 

Paz

[Alex A]

On a side note,  does anyone know if that dealer in Derbyshire is still in business, Ryujin swords?

 

His site wont come up on my pc and getting other sites using the name

 

He used to sell papered swords and send stuff to Shinsa.

 

Not spoke to him in years though, forget the name.

[Geraint]

Hi Alex.

 

I think it was Kevin at Ryujin.  A year or so back I bought some supplies from him as he was selling up his stock and moving out of the business.  Another one bites the dust.

 

All the best.

[Alex A]

Aye, Kevin, that's it.

 

Remember he sold all the supplies and did various services, had a really interesting site.

 

A shame he is gone.

 

[Jon]

  On 7/15/2023 at 7:10 AM, Shugyosha said:

I would, however, recommend joining the To-ken Society

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Hi I’ve just become a member this last week….looking forward to some of the zoom meetings.

[Char]

  On 7/14/2023 at 8:16 PM, Jon said:

Cheers guys, that’s a shame, looks like I may have to risk all the importing hurdles, there are some really will priced swords for sale on the Japanese sites.

 

Any advice on importing do and don’t a ?

 

jon

Expand  

If you decide to go the overseas route do a lot of research even Juyo status blades may have flaws and returned, or lack of papers and the price doesn't always reflect that.

[Matsunoki]

  On 7/14/2023 at 8:16 PM, Jon said:

there are some really will priced swords for sale on the Japanese sites.

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Jon, don’t focus on the price, focus on the sword. As Gary alludes, there may well be a very good reason why a sword appears “cheap” especially in Japan. Make sure you know exactly what you are committing to before buying from Japan. Mostly you will probably not be able to return the sword if you discover something nasty that was undisclosed or “carefully worded”.

Have you tried the “wanted to buy” section on this Forum? You could specify “UK only” 

A final tip that I have ignored to my cost a few times……”only buy what you really want and not what happens to be available”

[Baba Yaga]

  On 7/16/2023 at 12:27 PM, Char said:

If you decide to go the overseas route do a lot of research even Juyo status blades may have flaws and returned, or lack of papers and the price doesn't always reflect that.

Expand  

 

The U.S. has more grifter sword dealers than a hen house has hens. It's always been the Market and won't change. Learning about swords on ebay is like learning about cars in a used car lot. 

[Alex A]

  On 7/16/2023 at 12:42 PM, Matsunoki said:

” 

A final tip that I have ignored to my cost a few times……”only buy what you really want and not what happens to be available”

Expand  

 That's great advice!

[general_piffle]

I'm based in the UK and have gone about buying 2 swords that were located in Japan, my written Japanese is virtually non-existent and my spoken Japanese is very basic. One, a wakizashi where the dealer spoke little to no English I got Pablo Kuntz to help me, he instructed his contact in Japan and for a small fee the sale, paperwork, etc. were finalised. The transaction went very smoothly.

 

The other was via a Japanese dealer who understood English pretty well. So, I undertook the importation myself and it was pretty straightforward. I was fortunate not to fall foul of customs when the package arrived in the UK.

 

One UK dealer I can recommend who I've had good dealings with is Ian Chapman (also a member of the To-ken Society), he once found me my first ever piece, which I still have - a koto katana.

 

I have no business interests with anyone named above, this is simply my experience. Hope it helps.

[Guest Simon R]

What happened to good old Don Bayney?

[Bugyotsuji]

Don is around, though he no longer has that shop in Grays Antiques. Saw him about two weeks ago. Not sure if he still deals in Nihontō.(?)