cleaning a nihonto

[george trotter]

Hi Bruno,

I think (at last) I am beginning to understand your question. I think I, and the other posters here may have been misunderstanding you.

I think you are asking : If a sword is so dirty that you cannot see any details of steel, hada and hamon activity...then is the only way to be sure whether the blade is gendaito (tamahagane and water tempered) or "machine made" (western steel, oil quenched etc) to have the sword traditionally polished.

I would asnwer...it depends on a number of factors to be considered first... your knowledge and judgement.

If the sword has an obvious WWII Seki gunto shape and signed by one of the known Seki Gunto Tosho, with a sho or seki stamp...it is almost certainly western steel...you don't need to have it polished to know what it is based on your past observations of Seki gunto. In the case of a dirty Fukumoto Kanemune, you said he is known to have worked in both steels. If he worked with different signature, different shape and tang finishing for each style (like Yasukunitosho Yasunori who signed Kunimori when using western steel)...you would only need to know these details to decide on the sword being Tamahagane or not. If you don't know this, or if Kanemune worked in both steels but his signature, shape, tang etc are the same...then I would say (if you believe this) you would have to have it polished to see which steel it was. BUT, even in traditional polish, Japanese sources on forging say you can't really tell if the steel is tamahagane.

Maybe you should post this question on the Nihonto site and see what the members there think?

Regards,

George.

[Bruno]

WAOU!

 

Thank you so much George! This is excatly the answer I was waiting for!!!

 

Bruno

[bluboxer]

Good day,

Interesting topic and thanks for bringing it Bruno.The question of differentiating tamahagane from other steels seems to be a recurring issue and from reading many posts in this forum I naturally assumed that this was relatively easy by a knowledgeable nihontophile.

Since I have handled so few actual nihonto I would respectfully ask Mr.Trotter what sources he was referring to?

Japanese sources on forging say you can't really tell if the steel is tamahagane.

[Bruno]

HI everyone!

 

I have another question different than the one I asked.

 

I join pics of a showato which tip is dented.I would like to know your opinion about it. Is it fatal dent or is it easy to repair? Because it should be tempered steel I am afraid the tip will be broken(like glass) if I try to repair it.

 

I will maybe swap my NCO for this showato, but this dented kissaki make hesitate.

 

I will be very happy to have your opi,ions about it;

 

Best regards

 

Bruno

[Gunome]

Hi Bruno,

 

Not a fatal flaw because boshi is safe. A polisher would have enought place to reshape it.

 

Sebastien

[Bazza]

I join pics of a showato which tip is dented.I would like to know your opinion about it. Is it fatal dent or is it easy to repair? Because it should be tempered steel I am afraid the tip will be broken(like glass) if I try to repair it.

Bruno

Bruno,

My opinion is that it is fatal because it should have broken in the first place if it was correctly hardened. The bend as opposed to a break means the steel is soft, which means it isn't correctly hardened or has been damaged by excessive heat that has drawn the hardening. Either way definitely a sword to be avoided like the plague IMHO (In My Humble Opinion)

Regards,

Barry Thomas.

[george trotter]

Hi all,

Two comments...first, Bruno, I would have to agree with the above warnings that a bent tip or curled edge is a bad sign...if you are considering acquiring this sword, I would advise you to save your money...it is a sign that the metal is soft.

 

Next, about the sources for my comment that it is said that one can't really tell if a sword is tamahagane even when it is traditionally polished. Remember, the discussion context was WWII Seki production by tosho (eg Fukumoto Kanemune) capable of making traditional swords from tamahagane and also of different steel...but made, shaped, signed in the identical way (not stamped gunto).

Kapp and Yoshihara 'Modern Japanese Swords and Swordsmiths 1868 to the Present, pages 62-63 says about Seki WWII production that both types were made there but that the vast majority were not made from traditional steel (tamahagane) and those not made of tamahagane are called Showato to distinguish them. "The range and quality of these Showato is very broad. The better ones are almost impossible to distinguish from traditional blades" (I presume these to be in full polish). Also this work was "...of such a high standard that it was almost impossible for swordsmiths or experienced collectors to determine if the blade was traditionally made or Showato". They were so good that mei were forged and the blades sold as genuine old swords.

I have read this elsewhere also (Ohmura?) but as most of my books are in storage I can't quote other sources just yet. I would be interested in discussion on this point from the other Nihonto site members as there are a number of factors to discuss on "Traditional Nihonto-Tamahagane" issues.

Regards,

George.

[Stephen]

Bruno

 

please keep same thread on tip in one thread not two its very confusing.

[loiner1965]

post a pic please of your kanemune mei and i will compare it with mine....can you also list its measurements and possibly weight....as george as rightly said kanemune is a tricky smith to determine which steel he used or which mei he signed his swords......i have a kanetoshi which i believe kanemune signed

[Bruno]

Hi Steve!

 

I drawn and posted KANEMUNE MEI on a previous post in "help for translation", I hope it will help you.

 

Regards

 

Bruno

[Bruno]

Dear Old George - make sure you have company if you venture out into the dark!!!

- watch this space.

OK All,

The image I particularly wanted to show for Bruno as to quality urushi (traditional lacquer) finish on shingunto swords is this one:

 

The rest of the sword is off-topic and I'll post those on the Board index » Nihonto Discussion list under a new thread UNUSUAL SHINGUNTO.

 

George, I also have a damaged Shingunto lacquered saya that is damaged and shows the cloth underneath the lacquer.

 

Bruno, all this is to say that your "green" scabbards look to be traditional lacquer and should be preserved as such.

 

Best regards,

Barry Thomas.

 

Hello Barry,

 

 

is it a wooden lacquered saya or an iron lacquered saya?

[Bruno]

Barry looking forward to your other post.

 

want to share mine, sp order saya with same under the urushi, and yes it does seem to have a backing on the lacqure

Hello Stephen,

 

is it a wooden or an iron lacquered scabbard?

 

regards