Crane and turtle tsuba

[Brian]

Sharing this one, and hoping for any info on the school etc.
It is lightly signed, and I'll post that in the correct area to see if anyone can make it out. Nice patina, good tsuba. Don't know if this would be considered Bushu or Higo or...?
Popular theme, I think represents longevity?
Appreciate any info or comments.

 

[Spartancrest]

Hi Brian, sure is a popular design - it looks like nearly every school had a try at the design!  Higo, Akasaka and Akao in this group. The one from the Ashmolean has been grouped in the Itō schools of Yedo and Odawara.

[Dan tsuba]

Yes, I really like the crane and turtle design.  It is supposed to represent longevity.  Just wanted to show the one I have.  I think it is really a nice piece!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Spartancrest]

One like yours here Dan - https://www.worthpoi...-turtle-tsuba-katana

sorry no full image.

 

 

A short beaked cast version - within a rim - https://www.worthpoi...rtle-iron-1957703437  Very poorly finished.

 

 

One here just for laughs-  - I am sure you could get it very cheaply from China. 

 

More designs - some are out of focus, probably for a good reason! None of these unfortunately give a school attribution. - they can all be tracked down here. https://www.worthpoi...LE+TSUBA&categories=

[Curran]

Hi Brian-

 

It _is_ signed Tadatoki

that should be a big hint.

Also, certain punch marks up top that further point to that school.

 

Otherwise, I'll post an answer tomorrow. This one is easy enough that you should get it, even if someone else has to assist.

 

 

[Brian]

Curran, I was waiting for you
You're not going to believe this. When I first saw the tsuba, the word Tadatoki kept ringing in my ears. It's not like I even recognized the mei....something just kept saying that to me.
Seller said he thinks it's Higo, I pushed away the Tadatoki thoughts as just a wild guess. Interesting.
So you think it's shoshin Akasaka Tadatoki? Must say, I like it a lot. In hand, the patina is great. Now to come up with a fair price to list it for at the show. Any advice welcome.
 

[Stephen]

$250 sold sold sold 

Love it I rue the day I sold the one I got from Jean.

Insult to injury it was marked up four fold. 😞

[Curran]

11 hours ago, Brian said:

Curran, I was waiting for you
You're not going to believe this. When I first saw the tsuba, the word Tadatoki kept ringing in my ears. It's not like I even recognized the mei....something just kept saying that to me.
Seller said he thinks it's Higo, I pushed away the Tadatoki thoughts as just a wild guess. Interesting.
So you think it's shoshin Akasaka Tadatoki? Must say, I like it a lot. In hand, the patina is great. Now to come up with a fair price to list it for at the show. Any advice welcome.
 

 

This design is so popular that it can be difficult to attribute a school if mumei. Quality of work can differ a lot.

Luckily, yours is signed.  If you have the Akasaka book, you can probably go to the back and take a good guess at which generation of Tadatoki. Remember there were many. Odds are fairly good it is shoshin.

      Stephen, did you sell this one?

 

I think the correct name general name for them are Horai tsuba. See attachments. It has been years since I read this, so forget the particulars from Wakayama.

 

 

 

 

[FlorianB]

...just seen at Aoi Art, attributed to Higo Hayashi:

 

 

https://www.aoijapan...hinbthk-hozon-paper/

 

Best, Florian

[vajo]

Hayashi allways had this little blue/violett shining on the patination and the smooth appearance which is a good indicator if you unsure what kind of tsuba it is and which not. 

 

Example of an mid edo piece attributed to Tadatoki.

 

[Soshin]

On 7/9/2023 at 5:12 AM, Brian said:

Appreciate any info or comments.

 

Hi Brian,

 

Nice tsuba. Looks like your tsuba is a work of a later generation (kōdai 後代) of the Akasaka (赤坂) School. Thanks, @Curran, for spotting the mei "Tadatoki-saku (忠時作)" I was able to see the first Kanji and the third Kanji only from the photos but was not able to put it togehter. There were many generations of Tadatoki in the school and some worked into the school's later working period when the school focused on copying Higo designs and other popular designs of the late Edo Period.       

[Stephen]

May I ask what this sold for?

[paul tsubadotinfo]

Hi Brian,

did you sell this at the show? If not you should try to paper it. As from the 4th master till the 9th all Akasaka masters were called Tadatoki, I would be very interested which one this turns out to be. I believe it shouldn’t be too late.

[Brian]

It sold late at the show to one of the dealers on the forum. So maybe he'll take a closer look at it or offer it for sale soon. It was a very nice tsuba and I was surprised it didn't sell sooner.

[Grey Doffin]

I am the guilty party; Mark Jones and I bought this tsuba off Brian's table in San Francisco. I've just listed it on my website; you'll find it here:

https://www.Japanese...by-akasaka-tadatoki/

Cheers, Grey

[Dan tsuba]

That’s interesting.  So, it seems tsuba collecting is all about the “dollar bill”? 

 

Let’s forget that Brian stated to me in another thread “Who cares?? Everyone with a decent and professional interest in Japanese art.

What a stupid thing to say.

As for negative comments....good. This is NOT a safe space. We call out stupidity here.

I suspect _____ is a far more mature person and will take the criticism to heart and become a better collector without taking it personally. Unlike yourself.”

 

So, who wouldn’t take this comment from the “Head Administrator” personally?

 

I could never afford to spend over $300.00 U.S. dollars for a tsuba (usually between $50.00 to $150.00).

 

Well, Brian, here is a negative comment.  So, a collector that can’t spend a s**t load of money is not a “professional” and doesn’t have a professional interest in Japanese art?  What is a “professional tsuba collector”?  Someone that can only afford “museum quality” pieces?  Dealers? 

 

Hey, how about us other “tsuba collectors” that survive on one social security check to the other?  Are we considered “collectors”?  Are we “worthy” even though we collect “inferior” pieces, and as stated to me on another thread “and earn your place here.”?

 

And oh yeah, make no mistake.  I would have responded to Brian on the other thread if he hadn’t “locked it”.  How convenient is that for him!

 

Dan

[Stephen]

No comment to above.

As to Grey's price about $500 under what it should be. Would be if in Nippon.

[Dan tsuba]

Of course you have "no comment to the above".  That means you would have to "take sides".  Let's just keep talking about the "dollar bill".  That is much safer!

 

With the respect you think you deserve (wait, no once again I am being too kind!.  Let me just say with "no respect")

Dan

 

[Stephen]

2 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

So, a collector that can’t spend a s**t load of money is not a “professional” and doesn’t have a professional interest in Japanese art?

You have miles to go before your ever reach that. 

Keep digging the hole ...

Your not baiting me. 

[Dan tsuba]

"You have miles to go before you reach that".  What do you mean?  I need to collect more money so I can buy stuff and then have a "professional interest in Japanese art"?

You have dug your own hole long ago and have not realized it.  You are already "baited" by your own bias, and you can't figure that out!

Oh well, good luck!

 

 

 

[Brian]

Dan, as usual...I have NO idea what you are talking about. I'd probably consider some or other punitive action, but I'm too busy chuckling at your lack of any point here.
Like...what are you actually saying? You seem to be talking about collectors who can't afford good stuff, as though I am not someone who couldn't afford any of the stuff I was selling for someone at the show. Like really? What has money got to do with anything? Professionalism has zero to do with finances. We have members here who have almost ZERO items in their collections who I consider professional in the way they approach this subject.
Only you brought money into this. What has this tsuba that I sold for someone else got to do with anything?
Of course..nothing. As usual, you are just making up an issue to inject yourself into a conversation and make yourself relevant.
It's not working.
Leave Grey and Stephen and others alone, and go find some other kids to play with. Not my forum.

[Matsunoki]

1 hour ago, Brian said:

Not my forum.

Brian, do we really need this kind of ill informed ill considered spiteful offensive crap on this Forum? 
An interesting educational topic about a lovely tsuba ends up like this????

Colin ( definitely not one of the “good old boys often referred to”🙂

[Bugyotsuji]

You can admire your bed of newly-laid concrete, and even put up a warning sign.

“Freshly laid concrete!”

 

Inevitably a small creature will venture across it. Dinosaur DNA?