Menuki with solid backs?

[Brian]

Interesting daisho set here. They have very nice detail and seem really well done. But I have not seen solid back menuki like this before, or this theme. Are they Bodhisattva/bosatsu?
Has anyone seen anything like this, and can anyone guess if they are modern or just very well made antiques?
Hard to say I know, but they are certainly very striking. Would be amazing mounted. Quite small too.

 

[Larason2]

They are certainly good quality, and I think that speaks for itself to some extent. For some reason I feel like these are likely Chinese, though they could be good quality Chinese like the namban tsuba that are really good.

[Bazza]

Decades ago my old mate Laurie Allen had a pair of near identical menuki with solid backs.  I doubt I could find photos, but I do remember they were signed SHOZUI.  The memory is faint, but I think he submitted them for papers.  Again, I probably have a copy of the paper 'somewhere', but it would take me a week of looking and even then not find them.

 

BaZZa.

[Brian]

Bazza, that is a HUGE help.
So I take it when you say he submitted them, they passed?
Shozui will give me something to work on. Looks like they may be something good. Further research needed. Just need all 3 kanji translated. Perhaps I may call on @SteveM or @Nobody?

[Grey Doffin]

There are 2 Yasu, one Chika, and another I haven't tried to decypher. Yasuchika is a big name in kodogu. I've been watching this thread. At first I thought something was fishy but others said they were good or better so I kept quiet. I'm bothered by the fact that the pairs are identical, both in design and size: not what I'd expect from a daisho, let alone one with a big name. Someone prove me wrong, please.

Grey

[Brian]

Grey,
IIRC, they were not bought together or sold as a daisho set. So perhaps not originally together. They do have some small differences, but I share your hesitation.
Perhaps you can take a good look at them at the show. Under a loupe they are reasonably impressive. But of course modern methods could easily do this too.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Brian,

Not trying to rain on your parade; I see this as part of all of our learning curve. Another concern I have is the solid construction. Menuki aren't solid because they are worked from the back by repousse' as well as carved on the front. Solid construction precludes work from the back, making finish more difficult, and suggests that the pieces were cast. Are there other menuki with solid backs and authentication (paper)?

Grey

[Ford Hallam]

As Grey points out Yasuchika is a BIG name so the usual caveats apply. Having said that they're pretty tidy work and in fact there do exist a couple, at least, that I am aware of, of solid flat backed menuki bearing his name and papered highly. There were two pairs in fact in the old Tosogu museum, illustrated in the catalogue.

[Brian]

Thanks both. The mystery continues.
Grey, I agree, but just because most did something one way, doesn't mean there weren't some that did it completely differently. We see this all the time in Nihonto.
Of course I'm not arguing for them to by by THE Yasuchika. Just that they appear to be legit menuki to me. One thing in that favour is that if they were made in molds for mass production, they would be identical. But they aren't. There are enough differences to point towards individual manufacture.
Then we have Bazza that seems to imply his buddie's ones were papered (not sure to whom) and the ones at Aoi who says they aren't modern.
I guess the best is to have some of the experts look at them at the show. If any of them try to buy them, we know we have to investigate them further
Appreciate all the comments. Anyone want to guess why one pair are signed something else besides Yasuchika?

[Bazza]

Brian wrote:

> Anyone want to guess why one pair are signed something else besides Yasuchika?

Because there was a whole bunch of them with famous names all made in the same 'workshop'??

 

It has just come to me that my mate Laurie's were signed SHOZUI but pinked as gimei - this is a some 45 year old memory guys 'n' gals!!  I'll have to try and find my paperwork on this - it does exist - somewhere...

 

BaZZa.

[SteveM]

安親 Yasuchika　and

安随 Yasuyuki 

 

Both are Nara school names. There are about 9 Yasuchika smiths. Stretching to the end of Edo. Yasuyuki is an end of Edo Nara smith. 

Gassaku collaboration? 

 

[SteveM]

Darma and Kannon. See the surprisingly similar one here (supposedly by Hamano Masayuki)

 

https://page.auction.../auction/u1080519703

 

Adding a picture lest the link goes bad.

 

[OceanoNox]

10 minutes ago, SteveM said:

Both are Nara school names.

There was a kakenhi (national research fund) project on analysis of molds found in Nara, which were used for casting brass fittings, in particular menuki. One of the casting methods is said to be pouring the liquid metal into the menuki shape imprinted in sand, giving a solid piece.

Other methods imply having prepared both back and front imprint to cast a menuki that would be thin like one made by uchidashi.

 

Project details:

Project number: 研究課題番号：18H00015

Project title: 刀装具鋳型の三次元分析からみた近世鋳造技術の研究

[Brian]

Thanks Steve!
That is similar to what Aoi said. And since that do resemble Nara style work, I can easily see these being school work, being pushed out late Edo. Seem legit to me anyways, if they wanted to fake/cast menuki much later than that to deceive, they would have not made them solid. 2 Pairs of Darma/Kannon menuki of a popular style made by Late Edo workshops? As Ford said, you can\t deny the decent workmanship so they should be worth a few 100 to someone.
Thanks all.