Old katana

[Nhurley11]

Hi, I recently inherited this sword from my grandpa and we believe my great grandfather brought it back from ww2. If anyone could give me some information about it or maybe date it id really appreciate it! Thanks! 

[Mister Gunto]

Hi Noah, and welcome to NMB!

 

That sword is not a typical Japanese setup. The rattan-wrapped wooden handle is definitely not Japanese make. However, the tsuba (guard) and brass habaki look like they may be Japanese. The saya (scabbard)....possibly? But without better photos of the blade, not much else can be told at this point. With Japanese swords, a lot of information can be gleaned from looking at the tang. Not sure if it's possible to remove this handle or not? 

 

It may be a damaged Japanese WW2-era sword that was captured and later "dressed up" for sale by the locals in whichever country it was left in. It could also be a locally made copy of a Japanese sword with a few actual Japanese sword parts added on to make it look better. Collectors often refer to these as "Island Swords".  American GI's brought a lot of these home after the War.

 

 

 

[Ooitame]

Hi Noah, interesting sword. I agree with Bradley, looks like tsuba and habaki are Japanese. I like the tsuba. Without better pictures of the blade, preferably with all fittings off can tell us more. Someone will most likely come here soon and provide reference for care and handling. Until then I would recommend not doing anything to the sword.

[Brian]

That isn't rattan, it's string.
This sort of wrap has been seen a few times here on the forum. It was usually done by Westerners who took the sword home, and did this on the ship on the way back.
There is a name for this sort of sailor knotwork. I guess it was popular.
Sword is almost certainly real, probably antique. The problem is that this sort of wrapping hinders the ability to remove the wooden peg, remove the handle and see who made it or what the age is.
Similar issue: https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/38437-repairedwrapped-saya-wartime-or-post-war

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/12850-gunto-with-a-sock

 

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Noah,

I agree with Brian. This needs to be seen by someone who knows Japanese swords before you'll have a better idea what you have. Maybe the handle can come off without cutting into the string maybe not, but it needs someone with experience to attempt it.

In the mean time, don't try to fix anything yourself; well meaning amateurs often do damage. Here is a care and cleaning brochure that will tell you more:

https://nbthk-ab2.or...ord-characteristics/

Grey

[Nhurley11]

56 minutes ago, Mister Gunto said:

Hi Noah, and welcome to NMB!

 

That sword is not a typical Japanese setup. The rattan-wrapped wooden handle is definitely not Japanese make. However, the tsuba (guard) and brass habaki look like they may be Japanese. The saya (scabbard)....possibly? But without better photos of the blade, not much else can be told at this point. With Japanese swords, a lot of information can be gleaned from looking at the tang. Not sure if it's possible to remove this handle or not? 

 

It may be a damaged Japanese WW2-era sword that was captured and later "dressed up" for sale by the locals in whichever country it was left in. It could also be a locally made copy of a Japanese sword with a few actual Japanese sword parts added on to make it look better. Collectors often refer to these as "Island Swords".  American GI's brought a lot of these home after the War.

 

 

I’ll get some better pictures of the blade thanks for the info! Very interesting 

 

[Nhurley11]

6 minutes ago, Grey Doffin said:

Hi Noah,

I agree with Brian. This needs to be seen by someone who knows Japanese swords before you'll have a better idea what you have. Maybe the handle can come off without cutting into the string maybe not, but it needs someone with experience to attempt it.

In the mean time, don't try to fix anything yourself; well meaning amateurs often do damage. Here is a care and cleaning brochure that will tell you more:

https://nbthk-ab2.or...ord-characteristics/

Grey

Thanks for the links! Definently don’t want to do anything myself and risk damaging something I just need to find someone who knows what there’re doing 

[Baba Yaga]

You have choices to make. 

Behind door #1  Leave the sword like it is and accept it as sentimental value from your grandpa. 

Behind door #2 Be very very carful and cut the string so you can see what the tang looks like. You don't need an expert to do this. If you want to put everything back together the collectors way, it's going to cost $ thousands and a long time line.  To be honest, the odds are it's going to cost more than it's worth. You may get lucky and the sword could be made by a top rated smith, but the odds aren't in your favor. Hey you never know. 

 

It's expensive and painful to lose a toe. Wear shoes and be careful. 

 

 

[Brian]

If it were me, I'd find a friendly dentist of doctor and ask them to do an xray, to see what the tang looks like, where the ana is and get an idea of what's in store. If you know where the hole is, you may be able to find a way to get to it without damaging the tsuka too much.

[Ooitame]

Looking closer at the given images, the sword looks to be real, maybe older given the shape. Laying it flat and taking pictures from above may help. I do not think the cord needs to be cut off. The middle wrap should be where the pin is. I can see it looks to have been moved around slightly, I would check there if you wish to remove the handle.

[Nhurley11]

1 hour ago, Ooitame said:

Looking closer at the given images, the sword looks to be real, maybe older given the shape. Laying it flat and taking pictures from above may help. I do not think the cord needs to be cut off. The middle wrap should be where the pin is. I can see it looks to have been moved around slightly, I would check there if you wish to remove the handle.

Do you have any tips on removing the handle? I’ll upload some more photos of the blade. Thanks! 

[Stephen]

I don't know it's just you holding it hanging down or if the tip is actually on the floor. Tips are the easiest to snap off be careful.

We had a string wrap shown before, someone advised to tap the tsuba on each side till it broke the peg. But the GI that wrapped yours may have used a bolt so if nothing starts to give stop .

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Noah,

The task at hand, removing the handle to see the sword's tang, might be relatively easy, if you're lucky. but it might be difficult and there is no way for any of us to know which it will be just from the pictures. Explaining how to safely go about an attempt would be too much typing; there are too many variables. If you'd like to call sometime, I'll tell you what I know, talk you through it. I'm not an authority but I've been at this for 40 years and I've removed many difficult handles in that time.

Cheers, Grey  218-340-1001 central time.

[Ooitame]

Thank you @Grey Doffin, can be done with non metal tools, diffenerent shapes e.g. flat; pointed and rounded ike a punch.... I leave it to Grey, has generously offered guidance. Too be fair, even if wiggling and so on the cord wrap may not ne a big loss. However, preservation and best practices should be followed. In any event, good luck and looking forward to any updates.

[robinalexander]

Noah, some good advice above.

 

Cutting the string binding would not be an option I would consider.

[Nhurley11]

3 hours ago, Grey Doffin said:

Hi Noah,

The task at hand, removing the handle to see the sword's tang, might be relatively easy, if you're lucky. but it might be difficult and there is no way for any of us to know which it will be just from the pictures. Explaining how to safely go about an attempt would be too much typing; there are too many variables. If you'd like to call sometime, I'll tell you what I know, talk you through it. I'm not an authority but I've been at this for 40 years and I've removed many difficult handles in that time.

Cheers, Grey  218-340-1001 central time.

I’ll have to take you up on that thank you! 
I’ll give you a call sometime in the next few days 

[Guest Simon R]

5 hours ago, Stephen said:

I don't know it's just you holding it hanging down or if the tip is actually on the floor. Tips are the easiest to snap off be careful.

We had a string wrap shown before, someone advised to tap the tsuba on each side till it broke the peg. But the GI that wrapped yours may have used a bolt so if nothing starts to give stop .

The tip of the kissaki is long gone by the looks of it, Stephen.

[Stephen]

2 minutes ago, SRDRowson said:

The tip of the kissaki is long gone by the looks of it, Stephen.

Yes I seen that after I posted.

Shame but savable 

[Baba Yaga]

19 hours ago, Brian said:

If it were me, I'd find a friendly dentist of doctor and ask them to do an xray, to see what the tang looks like, where the ana is and get an idea of what's in store. If you know where the hole is, you may be able to find a way to get to it without damaging the tsuka too much.

 

That's hilarious    My doctor would cut my prescription in half if I asked him to do that  We have this thing called Xray techs here in the U.S.  

[Baba Yaga]

18 hours ago, Nhurley11 said:

Do you have any tips on removing the handle? I’ll upload some more photos of the blade. Thanks! 

 

Depends how handy you are. If you can feel the handle moving around in anyway that could be a good sign for easy removal. For all anyone knows it could be set in with some 80 year old epoxy an then wrapped, If the string isn't coated with lacquer, use a straight razor and start lightly working from the bottom up.  

  

[Brian]

34 minutes ago, Baba Yaga said:

 

That's hilarious    My doctor would cut my prescription in half if I asked him to do that  We have this thing called Xray techs here in the U.S.  

You need a new doctor or dentist. We have multiple members in the USA that easily accomplished this.

[Matsunoki]

Noah, that is an interesting looking katana you have there. Better images of the blade shape and size would help but it looks a substantial item. The black lacquered saya (scabbard) is without doubt original samurai period Japanese made as is the tsuba and the habaki (collar on blade just above tsuba). The habaki looks made from two interlocking pieces…..sometimes an indicator of better quality. The tsuba also looks substantial ….again size would help. 
 

However in my opinion the whole tsuka (handle) is a complete non Japanese replacement. If we look at the pommel end it is totally the  wrong shape and size for an original Japanese hilt. I think someone has made a wooden hilt and then used the string wrapping to hold it all together. I think it is pointless looking for a mekugi (peg) under the string. I bet whoever made the hilt just glued it all together or of he used a peg it could, as someone else has said , be a bolt or a nail and therefore no amount of hammering will shift it.

 

I can only say what I would do. If it were mine and bearing in mind none of the handle is original, I would remove it. Very carefully taking my time and not slicing myself with a Stanley knife. You will be removing part of the swords more modern Western “history” and maybe some sentimental value but I think the blade looks worth the gamble…..it’s a good looking thing. You may find a tang with no signature or with a fake signature or with a genuine signature. You may find it’s been greatly shortened or perfectly original. It’s all a gamble. It could turn out to be valuable…..or not….but with that replacement handle on it you’ll never know.

 

However that is what I would do. Others will disagree. Before doing anything please post us some better images and dimensions especially of just the blade length from tip to the habaki notch measured in a straight line. Do not include the tsuba or handle. If possible also get someone experienced to look for serious flaws or cracks before you do anything.

if the sword was in Japan there would be no hesitation in removing the handle!

 

Keep us posted….

All the best of luck.

Colin

 

[Nhurley11]

2 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Noah, that is an interesting looking katana you have there. Better images of the blade shape and size would help but it looks a substantial item. The black lacquered saya (scabbard) is without doubt original samurai period Japanese made as is the tsuba and the habaki (collar on blade just above tsuba). The habaki looks made from two interlocking pieces…..sometimes an indicator of better quality. The tsuba also looks substantial ….again size would help. 
 

However in my opinion the whole tsuka (handle) is a complete non Japanese replacement. If we look at the pommel end it is totally the  wrong shape and size for an original Japanese hilt. I think someone has made a wooden hilt and then used the string wrapping to hold it all together. I think it is pointless looking for a mekugi (peg) under the string. I bet whoever made the hilt just glued it all together or of he used a peg it could, as someone else has said , be a bolt or a nail and therefore no amount of hammering will shift it.

 

I can only say what I would do. If it were mine and bearing in mind none of the handle is original, I would remove it. Very carefully taking my time and not slicing myself with a Stanley knife. You will be removing part of the swords more modern Western “history” and maybe some sentimental value but I think the blade looks worth the gamble…..it’s a good looking thing. You may find a tang with no signature or with a fake signature or with a genuine signature. You may find it’s been greatly shortened or perfectly original. It’s all a gamble. It could turn out to be valuable…..or not….but with that replacement handle on it you’ll never know.

 

However that is what I would do. Others will disagree. Before doing anything please post us some better images and dimensions especially of just the blade length from tip to the habaki notch measured in a straight line. Do not include the tsuba or handle. If possible also get someone experienced to look for serious flaws or cracks before you do anything.

if the sword was in Japan there would be no hesitation in removing the handle!

 

Keep us posted….

All the best of luck.

Colin

 

Thanks for the info very much appreciated! How should I go about uploading more pictures? There’s a very small limit on upload size should I start a new thread? 

[Matsunoki]

8 minutes ago, Nhurley11 said:

Thanks for the info very much appreciated! How should I go about uploading more pictures? There’s a very small limit on upload size should I start a new thread? 

@Brian  Sorry to lay this on you Brian……I’m the wrong generation to offer any tech advise! I get in the most ridiculous muddles!

[Brian]

The limit is huge. More than about all other forums. You have a few megs per post. Are you not downsizing your pics from your camera or phone? Pics don't have to be megs big. 300kb approx is more than enough.
Try free image resizers online. You could probably upload more than 10+ pics per post if they aren't huge. Like you did in the first post.
That is plenty of pics. Gold subscription members can upload more.

[vajo]

I bet it is glued into the handle.

[GeorgeLuucas]

1 hour ago, Nhurley11 said:

Thanks for the info very much appreciated! How should I go about uploading more pictures? There’s a very small limit on upload size should I start a new thread? 

Hi Noah welcome to the forum, glad to see you’re getting good advice for this interesting sword 

 

If you’re doing this on your phone (like me!) - One simple way I’ve found to downsize images, is to take a screenshot on your phone of the image you’ve just taken. This will immediately copy the picture you’ve taken and make it a smaller size

[dimitri]

Or send it to your messenger profile and save again, compressed automatically.

[Stephen]

2 hours ago, vajo said:

I bet it is glued into the handle.

How many times have we seen that brother....🍻

[Ooitame]

If you were to remove the cord, use a razor and cut in line on the mune side. Slowly as you go deeper if needed. If you free you have hit or it sounds like metal stop! If you can get good straight cut the cord might stay intact. Next would be checking for glue. If serperastion is noàt easy it might be the mekugi pin. Either way use a softer material at the end of the handle, and the split is easily seen and slightly tap to see if it opens or moves. If it does easily most likely not glued or worn. If not then there could be a pin and would require removal of the cord to check. If no pin is seen, then assume a glue. It may require cuts on bith sides to get a good split. Either way slow, steady and carefully. Good luck!