Chikugo no Kuni-jū Mutō Hidehiro 1942

[Nicholas]

I have a sword signed Chikugo no Kuni-jū Mutō Hidehiro dated 1942. The blade has no stamps on it. Im assuming it’s a Gendai. It looks well made from what I can see. It has some markings on the mune of the nakago that I can’t decipher. Does anyone know what these markings mean? Also I didn’t find many examples of Hidehiro’s blades on internet searches.

[george trotter]

Hi Nicholas,

Yes gendaito by a good smith. Muto (Hideyoshi) Hidehiro of Fukuoka.

Dated KOKI 2602 year (1942).

Born Meiji 24 (1891) died Showa 46 (10 Mar 1971).

Regards,

[Nicholas]

  On 7/8/2023 at 2:42 PM, george trotter said:

Hi Nicholas,

Yes gendaito by a good smith. Muto (Hideyoshi) Hidehiro of Fukuoka.

Dated KOKI 2602 year (1942).

Born Meiji 24 (1891) died Showa 46 (10 Mar 1971).

Regards,

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Thanks George, do you know what the markings on the mune are? Some sort of inspection marks from an arsenal?

[Bruce Pennington]

They are the "KO" of the Kokura Army Arsenal Supervisory Section and the "HO" of the 1st Factory of the Kokura Army Arsenal.  

[Bruce Pennington]

Have you removed the habaki and looked under there?  A star stamp can be pretty high on the nakago sometimes.  Hidehiro was RJT qualified and I have 3 of his blades on file with star (2-1942, 1-1943).  However I do also have a couple of his blades with NA/HO and KO/HO mune stamps that don't have the star.  

 

[Nicholas]

  On 7/8/2023 at 6:02 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

Have you removed the habaki and looked under there?  A star stamp can be pretty high on the nakago sometimes.  Hidehiro was RJT qualified and I have 3 of his blades on file with star (2-1942, 1-1943).  However I do also have a couple of his blades with NA/HO and KO/HO mune stamps that don't have the star.  

 

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Thanks Bruce that’s interesting. Yes I was able to remove the habaki it was on pretty tight. No star stamp or anything to my surprise. I thought for sure I’d see one. That’s what made me question if it’s a Gendaito. If he was a RJT smith and this blade has the HO and KO on the mune It was made at an arsenal. Why no star stamp?

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 7/8/2023 at 7:14 PM, Nicholas said:

and this blade has the HO and KO on the mune It was made at an arsenal. Why no star stamp?

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Well, we don't know a lot about the lives and work of many of these smiths.  We know next to nothing of how arsenal sword production worked.  So the short answer is - we just don't know.

 

A possibility is that the forge didn't have enough tamahagane for that day, so the smiths churned out blades using other steel.  But that's pure speculation.

[Kiipu]

  On 7/8/2023 at 7:14 PM, Nicholas said:

Why no star stamp?

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The "star" stamp does not appear until mid to late 1942.  Anything made prior, will be marked differently.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 7/8/2023 at 8:45 PM, Kiipu said:

 

The "star" stamp does not appear until mid to late 1942.  Anything made prior, will be marked differently.

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Good catch, Thomas!  I do have 2 blades from Feb & Mar '42, but the rest start later.  I do have 2 "1942" dated Hidehiro, star blades, but he could have been RJT qualified anytime that year.

 

STAR Blades

1942, Feb	Saga	Masatsugu		Ganko, NMB
1942, Mar	Gunma	Kanetsugu	RS	Ganko, NMB
1942, Spring	Gifu	Kanenobu	RS	Ganko, NMB
1942, June	Saga	Masatsugu	Na Ho on mune	Shuriken, NMB
1942, Aug	Akita	Chikamitsu	406	Peter(C),NMB
1942, Aug	Saga	Masatsugu		Kapp/Monson,pg82
1942, Aug	Fukushima	Shigefusa	Ho on mune	MeCox, NMB
1942, Aug	Tokyo	Sukehiro	1525	Slough, pg 162
1942, Aug	Saga	Yoshitada		ebay
1942, Sep	Saga	Kanemoto	Na Ho on mune	Zentsuji2, NMB
1942, Sep	Kumamoto	Morinobu	94; Ho Ho mune

[Nicholas]

  On 7/8/2023 at 8:45 PM, Kiipu said:

 

The "star" stamp does not appear until mid to late 1942.  Anything made prior, will be marked differently.

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So this blade could potentially be early 1942. Before or at the very start of the RJT program. Or before he was contracted. 

[george trotter]

Hi Bruce, I also found a RJT star stamped  Muto Hidehiro rubbing with KOKI date 2/1943. This has the ko  ho  marks on mune.

(wish I still had that sword - sold it c.1982 and the buyer "polished" it himself - ruined!!!!).

Hope this is of use for your records.

Regards

PS, I just added in the note on Hidehiro - column 3 says he became a RIKUGUN no JUMEI TOSHO in Sho 14/ 6 (June 1939). Not sure about RJT start dates, maybe they mean he started doing work for the Army in that year (a mystery of the RJT scheme for you to solve Bruce - whoohahaha).

[Bruce Pennington]

Thanks George, I think!  I'll have to do some digging on our latest understanding of the RJT program.  I know it was talked about on one of the threads.  Seems like there is someone who specializes in RJT blades.  Is it @vajo?  Maybe @BANGBANGSAN?  

 

On the KO/HO stampings, I had initially started charting them, but never followed up.  I do have a 1935 Mitsuhiro with both stamps, posted by @tonyb.  

 

Too many rabbits to chase!!!  I'm going to sit down and just watch them eat grass for a bit. (at least until my granddaughter's Bday party is over!)

[BANGBANGSAN]

  On 7/9/2023 at 2:16 PM, Bruce Pennington said:

 Seems like there is someone who specializes in RJT blades.  Is it @vajo?  Maybe @BANGBANGSAN?  

 

 

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Bruce

Thomas is the one who knows more about RJT.

According to Nick "  1942 July: The Army called upon each prefecture to solicit volunteers through these unions, who may be interested in getting into sword production. These messages from the military originated in the First Tokyo Army Arsenal and got passed onto the union through the Trade and Industry Dept. of the Prefectural government, and then from the union to its member smiths."

https://www.warrelic...sword-1940-a-793016/

https://www.warrelic...umentation-789067-6/

From Ohmura san:

これを受けた陸軍兵器本部は、昭和 15年8月16日、試案を纏めて陸軍大臣に実施を申請し、翌日認可された。 15年度中に指定刀匠を使って仕様に基づいた若干の試作刀が作られ、陸軍戸山学校で性能の実践検証が実施された。 統一性の無い日本刀を規格化する初めての試みだった。 同時に服制の「軍装用軍刀」を「兵仗化」する狙いがあった。刀身の制式化である。 上記の加工仕様書は制式仕様を刀匠に指示したものである。

http://ohmura-study.net/214.html

 

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 7/9/2023 at 11:06 PM, BANGBANGSAN said:

1942 July

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Thanks Trystan!  

 

It is often a mild surprise to read a sword source IN Japan that has obviously wrong information, but it does happen.  I don't know the source of George's citation, but it raises questions.  Either the source knew something from back then, that we are not aware of yet, or our translation of it is off-kilter in some way, or they are (or were; don't know when this was written) operating with some wrong information.   It may simply be, as George alluded, a matter of linguistics.  All the same, an interesting item.

[george trotter]

Hi Bruce,

that image of Muto Hidehiro with the statement that he began as a RJT in Sho 14/6 (June 1939) is from Ono, 'Gendai Toko Meikan' 1971 p.100 (look at image page and read column #3 (this is the earliest RJT start date I have seen).

I posted it as I thought it might be worth a chat with the RJT knowledgeable on the start date of scheme. Just my "feeling" on this is that maybe thoise smiths who were closely linked to Army swordmaking were the first to be offered a RJT position...or maybe Ono has made an error?

I will have a look at my other books and if it says anything further I will let you know.

Regards,

 

I had a quick look through my books and while all mention Hidehiro was RJT only the page I posted gives a start date....sorry.

This is maybe a question that needs looking at by RJT specialists...

[Kiipu]

I believe there was a pilot program prior to 1942 and seem to recall Ohmura san mentioning it.  So lets not tar and feather poor old George yet.

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 7/10/2023 at 2:15 PM, Kiipu said:

pilot program prior to 1942

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That would explain the statement in the article.  I'm filing all this in my RJT file.

 

Thanks George!

[george trotter]

Thanks guys.

Yes Bruce, putting it on your list and keeping our eyes open for an actual signed/dated/star stamped example is probably the only thing we can do about this so far (unless someone finds some more actual reference to it somewhere - I will keep browsing and see if I can find any more references).

In the meantime, I hope we get a bit of feedback from the RJT knowledgeable...might be a good conversation.

 

I know that of my 4  star stamped blades 1 is dated 1943 and 3 are dated 1944 so well into the RJT period we know of,

and of my 3 blades by smiths who are known RJT (but no star), 1 is undated, 1 is Sept 1941 and 1 is April 1942, so presumably they were not yet RJT at those dates.

So this statement I posted regarding Hidehiro translates as  " #3  Showa 14 nen 6 gatsu Rikugun no Jumei Tosho to naru." (1939 June, Army no Certified Swordsmith became) is so far the earliest RJT start date I have seen mentioned - and - it only refers to this one smith Hidehiro, it is not saying that this 1939 year start refers to the whole RJT scheme across Japan.

I suppose only the seeing of an actual tang with a name, a 1939/1940/1941 date and star stamp will confirm an early start year (for some smiths only?), and so far we have not seen one. 

Regards,

[BANGBANGSAN]

@Bruce Pennington @george trotter

Here is the List of Seki Swordsmiths for Military Swords (Showa-to) During the Showa War Era, Including the Reported and Investigated List Until October of Showa 14, and the Subsequent Newly Reported Swordsmiths List. It also marked the time when each swordsmith became an RJT.

http://www.touken-kasugado.com/faq_2.html

[george trotter]

Me again.

Thanks Trystan, I have this list and it refers to those smiths who became gunto makers in Seki in WWII...pretty sure these smiths were not RJT, just "Seki smiths"?

 

As promised Bruce, I had a look through my 'Nihon Toko Meikan' again and while it mentions many smiths who were RJT, it rarely gives the date/year they started.

I did find one however...p.160, smith name NIWA Kanenobu of Gifu born Meiji 36 (1903). 

It says that in "Showa 15 (1940) at the Kokura Arsenal No. 1 he became Jumei tosho". I am no expert but it it seems that as I said, maybe those smiths working under the Army at their arsenal forges were the first to become RJT (maybe even had their tangs stamped with the Army star? - I also think Kanenobu tang would have the 'ko - ho' stamps). As the demand for swords grew and the Yasukuni could not keep up, in 1941 the call went out from the army to begin the RJT scheme and from late 1941 - early 1942 it was established. I know that the establishment of RJT schemes in various prefectures was not "all at once". The Yamagami brothers in Niigata starting as RJT in Sho 14 and another of my smiths Tsukamoto Masakazu of Fukushima starting in late 1942/early 1943.

I suppose in reality this issue is not that important, just of interest that the "rolling out" of the RJT scheme is "staggered" across Japan - probably due to sorting out details for the supply of tamahagane, mounting shops, local supplied charcoal and shipping details  etc, etc.

As it stands, on this TINY amount of info, it seems that the arsenal smiths would be more likely to have early start dates as they already had guaranteed supply of army-owned materials to the arsenals.

 

Lots of fun,

[mecox]

George et al, certainly looks as though the appointment of many smiths to RJT took time, maybe 6 months plus.  I also had the view those associated with arsenals were appointed earlier.  I also found another term also seen in Japanese literature “shitei tosho” which is prefaced with both “kaigun” and “rikugun” .  The context indicates they are appointed positions, and before the Rikugun Jumei Tosho scheme was implemented.  One example is for Nakata Kanehide 中田兼秀 (a top graduate of the Watanabe Kanenaga juku) who became “rikugun shitei”  with the Seki Token Kabushiki Kaisha (a large Co. Ltd).  His younger brother Matsubara (Inaba) Kaneyoshi  松原兼吉 became a Kaigun Jumei Tosho (and is not in the RJT list).  I don't really understand it.

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

To add to the fray, a sword I once had by his son Muto Yukihiro (also RJT) dated November 1941 with NA & HO stamps. No star stamp but 100% Gendai.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

  On 7/11/2023 at 6:59 AM, mecox said:

I also found another term also seen in Japanese literature “shitei tosho” which is prefaced with both “kaigun” and “rikugun” .  The context indicates they are appointed positions, and before the Rikugun Jumei Tosho scheme was implemented.  One example is for Nakata Kanehide 中田兼秀 (a top graduate of the Watanabe Kanenaga juku) who became “rikugun shitei”  with the Seki Token Kabushiki Kaisha (a large Co. Ltd).  His younger brother Matsubara (Inaba) Kaneyoshi  松原兼吉 became a Kaigun Jumei Tosho (and is not in the RJT list).  I don't really understand it.

 

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I'm starting to wonder if the RJT (and KJT) were organizations that existed before the Army decided to round up all the tamahagane and create their own specialized gendaito operation.  It would explain how smiths could become members of the organizations and make blades with simple arsenal inspection stamps, then in '42 the Army starts using the star on blades made in the new, official, gendai program.